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  1. #1
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    Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Hello to AS


    With no plans for phono, or other analog sources I am trying to figure out if directly connecting a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC to an amp and bypassing the preamp will yield the same or possibly better sound?


    Since primarily playing Tidal through Direct Stream and SACDs through Memory Player, it was mentioned the preamp essentially becomes an expensive master volume knob when can be controlled directly through the DAC.


    What are the gains and what are losses?
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
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  2. #2
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Welcome to the forum, thank you for joining.
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  3. #3
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Great to be here, thank you!
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
    Source Digital: Aurender N10 | Brinkmann Nyquist MK II
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  4. #4
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Have you personally tried hooking up your Directstream to your MC452?

    Sure you can do it and some prefer direct, while some, like me, still prefer a preamp in the system. Direct may give you a quieter sound with more perceived detail but with that, for me, comes a bit of harshness and lack of musicality. A preamp will round out the sound a little but add so much more. I've tried my dacs direct and while I like it at first, I soon tire of the combo. I add back a preamp and the magic returns.
    Fleetwood Deville by Oswald Mills Audio, Vienna Acoustics Haydn Jubilee, Wharfedale Linton w/ stands, Klipsch RB-75, Klipsch RP-160M.

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    NAD C 658 streamer.

    First Watt SIT-3, Job 250 Monos, NuForce STA200, AkitikA GT-102 amp, ASL Wave monos, Dennis Had 45 monos. Absolute Audio Labs PCF 25 amp (improved First Watt F7 super clone)

    Topping D90, RME Audio ADI-2 DAC FS, ModWright Ultimate Sony XA-5400ES.

    Burmester 948, McIntosh MCLK12, Kimber Kable, Siltech, Cardas, Avanti Audio cables.

  5. #5
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    In the past I have tried going direct but have always gone back to using a separate pre-amp. Depending on which iteration of my system the direct connection did seem to add a bit of immediacy to the sound but cost a little detail and occasionally musicality. I could see where some might come up with a different opinion.
    Jim

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  6. #6
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Hello to AS


    With no plans for phono, or other analog sources I am trying to figure out if directly connecting a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC to an amp and bypassing the preamp will yield the same or possibly better sound?


    Since primarily playing Tidal through Direct Stream and SACDs through Memory Player, it was mentioned the preamp essentially becomes an expensive master volume knob when can be controlled directly through the DAC.


    What are the gains and what are losses?
    You might bet interested in a digital pre-amplifer then. Check out the McIntosh D1100.
    Living room:
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  7. #7
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by joeinid View Post
    Have you personally tried hooking up your Directstream to your MC452?

    Sure you can do it and some prefer direct, while some, like me, still prefer a preamp in the system. Direct may give you a quieter sound with more perceived detail but with that, for me, comes a bit of harshness and lack of musicality. A preamp will round out the sound a little but add so much more. I've tried my dacs direct and while I like it at first, I soon tire of the combo. I add back a preamp and the magic returns.
    me too, tried it loads of times . I could release a lot of cash if I sold my pre amp but using dac direct to amps is detailed and livable but not for too long
    1]bel canto EIX/ F5 monoblocks . BC cd2, tannoy eaton legacy 2]bel canto pre 5 ,arcam a85 , black ice modded dac
    modded dac , marantz sa8005, Verity audio Rienzi

  8. #8
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by still-one View Post
    In the past I have tried going direct but have always gone back to using a separate pre-amp. Depending on which iteration of my system the direct connection did seem to add a bit of immediacy to the sound but cost a little detail and occasionally musicality. I could see where some might come up with a different opinion.
    Same as above.

    Welcome UltraFast69.

    I also think finding a world class preamp is harder than people think.

    IMHO, it's ARC, Ayre and VAC as the top dogs.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

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  9. #9
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    UltraFast69.......I have made the comparison between using a preamp and going direct to amplifiers with several systems. I tried it with a McIntosh MCD500 and MC501's, a MCD1100 and MC601's, and an Esoteric K-03 and MC2301's. In all instances my initial impression was a bit more detail going direct, but as time progressed I discovered listener fatigue crept in. The performance of those three player/DAC's lost a sense of musicality, emotional involvement, and my ability to listen for an extended period of time. Returning the preamplifiers to the systems, a McIntosh C2300, a C1000C/T, and a C1000C/P, the systems regained my complete attention and pleasure. There is much more to the existence of a preamplifier in the signal path than simply providing an analog volume control. Naturally, my experiences may not be yours, but after three different attempts to achieve a degree or two of additional performance from multiple systems I have satisfied my curiosity and will keep the preamplifiers in the signal path.
    Dan

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  10. #10
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    The DS always works best with BHK Preamp. I have both and the synergy is lot better than going direct. Also check the PS Audio forum for details.

  11. #11
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    It's funny because Paul says the best pre is no pre. I use a PS DS and go direct to my amps, but can't tell you if it is better as I don't have a pre.
    Jeff










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  12. #12
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGlacken View Post
    It's funny because Paul says the best pre is no pre. I use a PS DS and go direct to my amps, but can't tell you if it is better as I don't have a pre.
    I recall that Paul's position was originally as you stated, but then his preference changed once they developed their BHK preamp which he found to sound better than direct.

  13. #13
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Another vote for a good preamp. I have tried direct and with a preamp and preamp wins. But not with the specific equipment you mentioned.

  14. #14
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Many BHK sig pre amps for sale on the Gon. So not so good or what?
    Jeff










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  15. #15
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by JGlacken View Post
    Many BHK sig pre amps for sale on the Gon. So not so good or what?
    To my point earlier, there's better.

    Similarly priced LS28 and Ayre KX-5 Twenty for example.


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    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

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  16. #16
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    To my count there are six for sale and four are dealers at list price. Nothing to see there.
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  17. #17
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    I really don't give much credence to whats for sell on the gon. Like there are over 15 Bryston amps for sell. 2 Ayre VX-5 Twenties, or 8 PS Audio Direct Stream DACS. Does that say something is not right with the product(s) or is it people are upgrading or dealers are just clearing inventory. .
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  18. #18

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Paul McGowan used to be a non preamp stalwart, he now is a believer.

  19. #19
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Paul used Aesthetix Calypso pre before they developed the DS DAC. With DS he found it to sound better going direct. With BHK, the combo sounded much better. I played with DS for a while going direct to the amp when I had the Cary slp-05 Pre. After getting the BHK, the combo indeed sounds better to my ears as well.

  20. #20
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    To my point earlier, there's better.

    Similarly priced LS28 and Ayre KX-5 Twenty for example.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Agree, there are much better pre for more price but not the LS28. I borrowed one from my friend and don't think its remotely close to what I get from the BHK. Maybe its the system dependent thingy...

  21. #21
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Whatever it is, a good Pre is the heart of any audio system.

  22. #22

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by UltraFast69 View Post
    Hello to AS


    With no plans for phono, or other analog sources I am trying to figure out if directly connecting a PS Audio Direct Stream DAC to an amp and bypassing the preamp will yield the same or possibly better sound?


    What are the gains and what are losses?
    I have a similar setup with an NAD M51.

    If the digital volume control is sufficiently "deep" you won't lose resolution if it controls gain.

    I've had multiple Preamps (none so fine as mentioned here) and they all mask some data.

    I vote for fewer buttons, knobs and parts.

  23. #23
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Now in my 60's, I am a firm disciple of the digital camp, preferring to spin silver discs than vinyl albums for much of the time.

    Because I have a large record collection and many LP's collected since the 70's, that I have never duplicated on CD, a good preamp is a must for me.

    I consider myself very fortunate to own not only one of the generally considered 'best' preamps in the Conrad Johnson GAT Series 2, but also a top-tier digital front end in the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 "full stack."

    The digital volume control of the Vivaldi DAC is recognised as being particularly good and I have, indeed, spent many hours listening to my system playing 'direct' from the DAC into my Conrad Johnson Premier 350SA power amp and with the GAT 2 in circuit.

    On first listening to the Vivaldi DAC driving the power amp direct, the sound is impressive, with plenty of detail and a palpable quality to the music. I have the ability, via the Vivaldi DAC to vary the output from 0.2 volt through to 6 volts in four increments and have experimented at the lower end of the scale in an effort to raise the DAC volume control and therefore the bit resolution as much as possible while keeping within a reasonable listening volume for my room.

    Initially very impressive, I found my attention starting to wander after a time, but this was never the case when the GAT 2 preamp was in circuit, with the Vivaldi DAC at maximum 0.0db volume.

    The insertion of a quality preamp, for me, in my system, is preferred and leads to many hours of fatigue-free listening pleasure, drawing me into the music more.

    I hope I have been able to convey my preference for a preamp in the context of my system.

    Other listeners may, indeed prefer the directly-driven approach. It's certainly not "night and day" and for me, proves that the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 DAC has an excellent quality digital volume control.

    fullsizeoutput_8fd by Steve Coward, on Flickr

  24. #24
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    I prefer my Music First TVC to several active preamps I've tried. I also compared it with MSB direct to my amp and preferred the system with the MF inserted.
    Brinkmann Bardo w/ EMT HSD-006 cart, MSB Reference DAC --> Linear Tube Audio MicroZOTL --> Ampzilla 2000, 2nd Edition --> Fyne Audio F1-12

  25. #25
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by Devg View Post
    Whatever it is, a good Pre is the heart of any audio system.
    absolutely right
    1]bel canto EIX/ F5 monoblocks . BC cd2, tannoy eaton legacy 2]bel canto pre 5 ,arcam a85 , black ice modded dac
    modded dac , marantz sa8005, Verity audio Rienzi

  26. #26
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Thanks all!

    Tough one as on paper direct path makes the most sense, however, listening revealed using the pre-amp for all the reasons stated. It’s in, staying put and I’m happy!
    Source Analog: Kuzma Stabi R w/4point 11 arm | Kuzma 50 Cartridge
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  27. #27

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    I also subscribe to the preamp camp, but I think that the manufacturers should get more with the groing trend and come up with a 'minimalist' line that would provide the same sound quality as their best, but limit the inputs/outputs, as enough of us it seems have abandoned all but our digital related single input.

  28. #28

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    I am also using MFA TVC and MSB. I also prefer MFA between MSB and amp.

  29. #29
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by IAmRael View Post
    I also subscribe to the preamp camp, but I think that the manufacturers should get more with the groing trend and come up with a 'minimalist' line that would provide the same sound quality as their best, but limit the inputs/outputs, as enough of us it seems have abandoned all but our digital related single input.
    I agree with this, and this is actually what I wanted from my preamp as well, no input selection, only volume control. The MFA Baby Classic actually is like this, but when I upgraded to the Baby Reference top model I was talked into keeping the original inputs and I don't regret it, even if I'm never going to use them it's nice to be able to flip to another input sometimes, and it's not really the input connections that costs money in the unit. But, someone actually got this built... as some manufactures can do whatever you want...

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  30. #30
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    I can understand that there is no need for a pre-amp if you are streaming only. This is audio 2.0. With new speaker generations to come like the KEF LS-50 wireless where the Roon endpoint sits in the speaker I can imagine that in the near future most audio set-ups will exist of an iPad and a set of fully integrated speakers.

    Having said that I do own a PS Audio DS Junior. And I am extremely happy with the sound quality and all the options. When I selected the DSJ a few criteria were very important: Roon endpoint, the development of MQA compatibility and very importantly that there is a real volume control. This allows a real high-end volume control with the iPad. Therefore the basis for direct connection to power amps or active speakers is there.

    However there is one point that is not perfect with the DSJ that is not perfect in my opinion. When switching off (and also when switching songs in different formats) there is a soft plopping noise.
    I don't know how strong this is with direct connections but when this is solved the direct connection should work perfect. I do know in the 6 Months I have my PS Audio that they are very active in continuous software improvements.
    Hans

    Bowers & Wilkins 805 D3 /alternatively JM Lab Point Source Aria 5 (self modified)/ 2x SVS 3000 SB, Audionet AMP (2x), dCS Bartók used as streamer / DAC / preamp, Pro-Ject RPM 9 with Speedbox S and Orthofon MC Vivo Blue, KEF LS50 Nocturne / Sunfire Atmos(kitchen). Patio: Bluesound Node 2i and Focal CMS50.
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  31. #31
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    The preamp's function is 4-fold:

    1) add any needed gain
    2) control the volume
    3) select inputs
    4) control the interconnect cable

    Of these four, the last is the least understood. Passive controls have no control of the interconnect at all, so a successful system that uses a passive will have had a lot of cable audition and likely has really short interconnects to boot.

    Put another way, if the line section is really doing its job right, the interconnect cable will not be that important. Preamps often have better volume controls than digital systems too, so the way to take advantage of the preamp's abilities is to run the digital volume all the way up and then use the preamp's control.

  32. #32
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Going direct does not mean you are operating without a preamplifier in the signal path. It means you are using the preamplifier built into the DAC, DAC/Player, or Music Server/DAC. These preamplifiers are rarely in the same league as separate high-end preamplifiers, being pared down to what is necessary to output the analog signal and nothing more. I am not saying all variable output stages in DAC's and other digital components are afterthoughts, but they certainly are not given the same level of attention as stand alone preamplifiers. Certainly some variable output stages on digital components are quite good, unfortunately they usually don't measure up under close comparison and scrutiny. I prefer the fixed line level outputs going direct to my preamplifier and then to my amplifiers. Don't be fooled into thinking you have bypassed a preamplifier by going direct.
    Dan

    STUDIO - McIntosh C1000C/P, MC2301 (2), MR88, Aurender N10, Esoteric K-01X, Shunyata Sigma spdif digital coax,
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  33. #33
    Senior Member
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    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Although going direct may work well in certain systems, I believe that in the majority of cases, having a pre-amp is better. The technical reasons are:

    1. Impedance mismatch - this is also one of the causes of using the same brand and product line of pre-amp and power amp combo is often better than mixed brands, if the impedance is not matched.

    2. Volume - most digital sources have digital volume only. A high quality analog volume is generally superior for the simple reasons that the noise floor from the source is lowered, and digital bits are not thrown away. (However, there are arguments that 32-bit digital volume is good enough.)

    3. How the source is designed - this is a little known aspect in this type of discussions. A certain kind of design decision is going to impact whether a direct connection is good or not. However, this cannot be found from specification sheet, and I believe most sources do not choose this design for other good technical reasons as they are not designed to drive power amps.

    That being said, if all of the above are taken care of, in a system with enough gain but not too much, then a direct connection can work well and be very neutral.
    Peter Lie
    LUMIN Firmware Lead

  34. #34
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    May 2017
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    Ohio, USA
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    181

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    There could be another element at play. I also tried going directly from my digital front end (an Oppo BDP-105 at the time) directly into my amplifier and found that the top end was fairly rolled off versus using a pre-amp in the loop. After doing a little digging, I discovered that the output impedance of the player wasn't a great match for the input impedance of the amplifier. I suppose it's like all the other "hacks" we do in audio: try it and see.
    Electronics: Pass Labs XP-22, Pass Labs X250.8
    Digital: T+A DAC 200, Auralic Aries G1, Sony UBP-X800M
    Analog: Pro-Ject X2 w/ Ortofon 2M Black, iFi Phono3 Phonostage
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  35. #35

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Sold my Nagra jazz and use my Nagra hd-dac directly into my Nagra amps. The hd-dac uses the same volume control as the jazz and the sound is totally spot on.
    i use a ADC from my phono stage into the dac...

  36. #36
    Senior Member
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    Apr 2013
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    1,288

    Re: Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

    Quote Originally Posted by XCop5089 View Post
    Now in my 60's, I am a firm disciple of the digital camp, preferring to spin silver discs than vinyl albums for much of the time.

    Because I have a large record collection and many LP's collected since the 70's, that I have never duplicated on CD, a good preamp is a must for me.

    I consider myself very fortunate to own not only one of the generally considered 'best' preamps in the Conrad Johnson GAT Series 2, but also a top-tier digital front end in the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 "full stack."

    The digital volume control of the Vivaldi DAC is recognised as being particularly good and I have, indeed, spent many hours listening to my system playing 'direct' from the DAC into my Conrad Johnson Premier 350SA power amp and with the GAT 2 in circuit.

    On first listening to the Vivaldi DAC driving the power amp direct, the sound is impressive, with plenty of detail and a palpable quality to the music. I have the ability, via the Vivaldi DAC to vary the output from 0.2 volt through to 6 volts in four increments and have experimented at the lower end of the scale in an effort to raise the DAC volume control and therefore the bit resolution as much as possible while keeping within a reasonable listening volume for my room.

    Initially very impressive, I found my attention starting to wander after a time, but this was never the case when the GAT 2 preamp was in circuit, with the Vivaldi DAC at maximum 0.0db volume.

    The insertion of a quality preamp, for me, in my system, is preferred and leads to many hours of fatigue-free listening pleasure, drawing me into the music more.

    I hope I have been able to convey my preference for a preamp in the context of my system.

    Other listeners may, indeed prefer the directly-driven approach. It's certainly not "night and day" and for me, proves that the dCS Vivaldi 2.0 DAC has an excellent quality digital volume control.

    fullsizeoutput_8fd by Steve Coward, on Flickr
    In my main system I use a GAT1. The Dac is the McIntosh MDA1000 with variable outputs too. As you and many other friends here stated, I never preferred the MDA direct into the amps compared to using a separate preamp. And this was the case not only with the GAT but with about 10 different preamps I used in 5 years.
    The MDA direct sounds thinner and fatigue appears quickly.
    A great preamp is a must for me in high end hifi. In the couple preamp-power amp, its influence is much higher than the one of the power amp imho. It gives the texture, the grain, the frequency bandwidth, the transparency and details.
    Seems not very difficult to build great sounding power amps for most brands. Building a great sounding preamp is an other challenge.
    Shindo, Nagra, Electrocompaniet, Harbeth, AMR, Mc Intosh, Auditorium 23, Rega, DeVore, JC Verdier, WireWorld, Kimber

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Cut out the Preamp and go Direct?

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