Is it time to ditch USB?

[Mike]

With the imminent death of DSD, the rise of MQA and the continued support for PCM, is it time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable and instead look at superior cables like AES/EBU?


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[Everest Audio]

I'll play devil's advocate here as I'm not seeing an imminent death of DSD or any big rise of MQA. MQA has made some headway for sure, but titles available for download or streaming are very minimal from what I'm seeing.

I do agree though that we need to ditch USB. The replacement though, in my opinion, will be more digital connections made via Ethernet. I don't see the future holding a lot for AES/EBU and S/PDIF. More and more DACs are coming out with Ethernet connections and that seems to be the future. If you don't want to make the Ethernet connection via your home network, there are NAS/streamers such as Melco that provide a high quality Ethernet interface to your DAC. More people right now are using Melco for the USB output, but I see that shifting more towards Ethernet down the road.

[Phil A]

Is MQA even available except for Tidal's service? I haven't followed it as I don't have interest in streaming at all. When I listen to internet radio it is generally on the bedroom receiver feeding the outdoor speakers. At one point many moons ago I had a Squeezebox Touch in the main system for internet radio and on rare occasion had it one while I was busy in the house. I can do the same with Lumin or JRiver now but that might be once or twice a year. More often than that I have an Oppo 103D in the bedroom hooked to the network where I can select probably just a bit under 50,000 music files, many in hi-rez and DSD to play over the outdoor speakers. If I find music I like, I generally just put it on a wish list somewhere to buy and get to it whenever.

[johndoe21ro]

I just hope DSD will continue to develop... PCM too.. Not much of an MQA fan!

[Narayan]

With the imminent death of DSD, the rise of MQA and the continued support for PCM, is it time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable and instead look at superior cables like AES/EBU?


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Imminent death of DSD? According to many it was a stillborn format and here it is 18 years later alive and kicking and refusing to die, let´s see where MQA is in 18 years time, I will not believe DSD is dead until I read a death certificate and see the corpse in the morgue with my own eyes When someone tells me MQA sounds better than DSD 256 I might start to worry.
Maybe it´s not time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable but to embrace better engineering in the form of iFI audio´s iGalvanic, the Uptone Audio Iso Regen, Schiit´s GEN 5 USB input or Phasure´s The Lush USB cable...although to be a contrarian, USB to SPDIF converters seem to be gaining popularity by offering better sound quality, something I haven´t had the chance to listen to yet.

[Everest Audio]

Imminent death of DSD? According to many it was a stillborn format and here it is 18 years later alive and kicking and refusing to die, let´s see where MQA is in 18 years time, I will not believe DSD is dead until I read a death certificate and see the corpse in the morgue with my own eyes When someone tells me MQA sounds better than DSD 256 I might start to worry.
Maybe it´s not time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable but to embrace better engineering in the form of iFI audio´s iGalvanic, the Uptone Audio Iso Regen, Schiit´s GEN 5 USB input or Phasure´s The Lush USB cable...although to be a contrarian, USB to SPDIF converters seem to be gaining popularity by offering better sound quality, something I haven´t had the chance to listen to yet.

For me, USB to S/PDIF converters are completely dead. They were very popular when DACs didn't have a USB input. Now that most DACs have USB, the USB to S/PDIF converters have really gone by the wayside. I can't remember the last time I sold one.

[jdandy]

I ditched the USB cable when My Aurender N10 arrived. It's digital coaxial cable all the way. Fabulous performance.

[Mike]

I ditched the USB cable when My Aurender N10 arrived. It's digital coaxial cable all the way. Fabulous performance.

Smart man.

The ONLY conceivable reason to have USB is due to the requirements of DSD for data transport. As one of the early proponents of DSD, I see it's imminent demise. Sony abandoned the format and there is only small studios really keeping it alive. Very little new material and nothing new and significant.

One only need to look at the vast amount of new (and old) music being added to the MQA database each week to see which format has a future and which one is on life support.

As for sonics of MQA and DSD, this I'm sure can be debated for a long time. But to my ears, a new recording done with the MQA filters and heard by the listener in full decode (not half ass free MQA which has no core decoding and rendering), but full decode is incredible. Better than DSD, better than redbook, and a real rival for world class analog sources (turntable/R2R). Better than vinyl? I need more listening!


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[jdandy]

Mike.......My DSD listening is done with SACD's played in my Esoteric K-01X. There is not enough variety in the SACD catalog to keep me excited about the format. I guess if I were a classical music enthusiast I might find the total SACD offerings of greater value, but as it stands I have approximately 60 SACD's that I enjoy. I still keep a watchful eye out for recordings I may enjoy on SACD but I am not going to consume large gigabytes of hard drive space for DSD files when I can just spin an SACD when something strikes my fancy, so no USB cable required from my N10 to the K-01X.

[mauidan]

Mike.......My DSD listening is done with SACD's played in my Esoteric K-01X. There is not enough variety in the SACD catalog to keep me excited about the format. I guess if I were a classical music enthusiast I might find the total SACD offerings of greater value, but as it stands I have approximately 60 SACD's that I enjoy. I still keep a watchful eye out for recordings I may enjoy on SACD but I am not going to consume large gigabytes of hard drive space for DSD files when I can just spin an SACD when something strikes my fancy, so no USB cable required from my N10 to the K-01X.

[jdandy]

Dan.......​Thanks for the graphs. Quite informative.

[Devg]

With the imminent death of DSD, the rise of MQA and the continued support for PCM, is it time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable and instead look at superior cables like AES/EBU?

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Are AES/EBU cables problem free ?

[the professor]

Ha

No cable is problem free.

[Mike]

Are AES/EBU cables problem free ?

Compared to USB? Yes.

[Mike]

An interesting read, Mike Moffat of Schiit Audio ranks USB only slightly ahead of Toslink (sad!). He also says AES/EBU is best.

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-audiop...und-different/

[Randy Myers]

Well to my ears DSD is fantastic. I see quite a few albums available, also more higher level DSD, such as Jazz at the Pawnshop 3 coming out in DSD256.

MQA has no interest to me since I do not stream. Storage, sure DSD takes more... does this matter to anyone but streamers? Seems like quite a bit is being released in SACD to me, and several new albums in DSD downloads.... new Diana Krall I downloaded in DSD128. Sounds amazing... new Lyn Stanley albums are some of the best recordings ever... released in vinyl and SACD... soon to be available in DSD128 according to Lyn...

[Marslo]

I was never buying so many sacds like now.
First, I can play them with my La Fontaine equiped with VRDS neo mechanism.
But the main reason is I ripp all sacds to DSD files using Pioneer BP.
It' s true that the offer of DSD native recordings is limited but recordings transfered from master tapes to sacd are often exceptional.
I recently ordered the Esoteric set of great Opera's and cant' wait.
http://www.elusivedisc.com/4-Great-O...fo/ESOSA90089/

I do not care about MQA , use streaming by Spotify only occasionaly as a third source.

[Randy Myers]

Agreed... got a couple Pink Floyd albums in SACD, along with several other albums not available in high res in any other manner... Supertramp, Gentle Giant, Rickie Lee, Steely Dan, Queen, Lyn Stanley, Patricia Barber, Santana, etc. Mobile Fidelity has released a ton in SACD lately....

[Mike]

Well to my ears DSD is fantastic. I see quite a few albums available, also more higher level DSD, such as Jazz at the Pawnshop 3 coming out in DSD256.

MQA has no interest to me since I do not stream. Storage, sure DSD takes more... does this matter to anyone but streamers? Seems like quite a bit is being released in SACD to me, and several new albums in DSD downloads.... new Diana Krall I downloaded in DSD128. Sounds amazing... new Lyn Stanley albums are some of the best recordings ever... released in vinyl and SACD... soon to be available in DSD128 according to Lyn...

Randy, it's great to see MOFI keeping SACD production alive. Regarding the new Diana Krall, did you mean Turn Up The Quiet or this new reissue (which is also available in MQA)?

[Devg]

Compared to USB? Yes.

No Mike, if you really think - the problem shifts to another domain with AES/EBU with all those reflections and technicalities on how to pass that clock jitter free. In fact, they cost more to implement. How many of them are true 100Ohms ? DAC's poor USB implementation has really given a bad rep to the USB interface.

[Devg]

An interesting read, Mike Moffat of Schiit Audio ranks USB only slightly ahead of Toslink (sad!). He also says AES/EBU is best.

https://www.cnet.com/news/the-audiop...und-different/

I am big fan of Schiit but that post is 3yrs old. During all these yrs, I am sure Mr Moffat have found a way to be had more from the USB. With the new Schiit's Gen 5 USB board, things might change

[Mike]

No Mike, if you really think - the problem shifts to another domain with AES/EBU with all those reflections and technicalities on how to pass that clock jitter free. In fact, they cost more to implement. How many of them are true 100Ohms ? DAC's poor USB implementation has really given a bad rep to the USB interface.

Packet noise from an AES/EBU transmission is a lot less than USB, therefore impacting less on the power supply rails.

AES/EBU does not carry VBUS or a signal ground, just a differential pair and a case earth wire.

FWIW, the AES/EBU connector is far more durable than USB.

In my own comparisons with the same make/model/brand of AES/EBU vs USB cables, the AES/EBU is better, removing a layer of grain and adding a level of ease. YMMV.

[Mike]

I am big fan of Schiit but that post is 3yrs old. During all these yrs, I am sure Mr Moffat have found a way to be had more from the USB. With the new Schiit's Gen 5 USB board, things might change

The article was written last year. Agree on the advancements of USB, but I still don't think it's as good as AES or even BNC. YMMV.

[Devg]

Packet noise from an AES/EBU transmission is a lot less than USB, therefore impacting less on the power supply rails.

AES/EBU does not carry VBUS or a signal ground, just a differential pair and a case earth wire.

FWIW, the AES/EBU connector is far more durable than USB.

In my own comparisons with the same make/model/brand of AES/EBU vs USB cables, the AES/EBU is better, removing a layer of grain and adding a level of ease. YMMV.

With PS Audio DS, there is virtually no difference between USB and AES/EBU interface in my testing, though I haven't used any uber expensive AES/EBU cable but I doubt the results would have differed. If you have found AES/EBU to sound a lot better than USB, then possibly either the AES/EBU in the source is better or the DAC's USB implementation is poor.

[Devg]

The article was written last year. Agree on the advancements of USB, but I still don't think it's as good as AES or even BNC. YMMV.

For me, the next generation should be Fiber Ethernet IN and Analog OUT with short internal I2S path to the DAC chip.

[Mike]

For me, the next generation should be Fiber Ethernet IN and Analog OUT with short internal I2S path to the DAC chip.

Yes!! Agreed.

[Randy Myers]

Hey Mike, in regards to Diana Kroll, I have 12 albums I believe, but what I was referring to was Turn Up The Quiet. I purchased DSD64 from Acoustic Sounds, but what I actually received was DSD128! This was a first day purchased, so maybe they have change it...

[johndoe21ro]

Well to my ears DSD is fantastic. I see quite a few albums available, also more higher level DSD, such as Jazz at the Pawnshop 3 coming out in DSD256.

MQA has no interest to me since I do not stream. Storage, sure DSD takes more... does this matter to anyone but streamers? Seems like quite a bit is being released in SACD to me, and several new albums in DSD downloads.... new Diana Krall I downloaded in DSD128. Sounds amazing... new Lyn Stanley albums are some of the best recordings ever... released in vinyl and SACD... soon to be available in DSD128 according to Lyn...

I'm on your side, Randy!

For me, the next generation should be Fiber Ethernet IN and Analog OUT with short internal I2S path to the DAC chip.

That would be nice!

[Melbguy1]

I won't comment on DSD or MQA, but re: ditching USB. In terms of the sound, I think it depends on implementation and attention to detail. For example the DSD-compatible USB board in my Vitus SCD-025 Mk2 was done right & took Vitus 6 months to develop that board alone.

Also cable companies like PAD and Siltech make serious high end USB 2.0 standard cables. So done right, music from even an unmodded laptop has the potential for audiophile sound. I have some lossless AIFF rips of XRCD24's & DXD's ripped via JRiver which sound very good. I haven't even started to explore DSD.

[La Dolce Vita]

With the imminent death of DSD, the rise of MQA and the continued support for PCM, is it time to ditch the problem ridden USB cable and instead look at superior cables like AES/EBU?


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Interesting question Mike. Deliberately provocative it beckons to bring/keep the sizzle in the forum.

While I agree MQA is likely to continue to rise, in my opinion it still has a long way to go. We can speculate all we like but in the end time will tell. Agreed though the signs are promising.

As for DSD... I would hardly say its death is imminent. We're all aware that the format never was embraced broadly, however so many people today do enjoy it. Like many others I have hundreds of DSD albums which represent 1/3 of my library.

Now regarding MQA... the first time I heard it fully decoded I recognized how different it is. Wow. But is it better than DSD? Not sure, but different. In the end, MQA adoption can be fueled through streaming (TIDAL).

Regarding cables... USB will remain the standard for quite a while yet. Some people here seem to like the Lush cable. Personally I was completely blown away by the Kubala Sosna Realization USB cable. Never expected the sound quality I am enjoying now.

AES/EBU may gain some ground in the upper echelon audiophile community but is not likely to come close to USB. If anything I agree Ethernet is likely to overtake USB at some point but again this is all speculation. In time we'll know.

It was just a week or two ago you were raving about the ifi USB thing. Done right, USB can perform at amazingly good levels. But clearly in many cases it is not implemented optimally.

For the time being and for the foreseeable future I'm fine with USB - especially with the KS Realization. It exceeds my expectations. Yes I'll play with SPDIF as well on my N10. Nice to have the clock etc but in the end this amounts to an intellectual exercise. When I want to enjoy the music and as Jock says get my toe tapping I just enjoy the best of what I've got today.



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[Marslo]

Packet noise from an AES/EBU transmission is a lot less than USB, therefore impacting less on the power supply rails.

AES/EBU does not carry VBUS or a signal ground, just a differential pair and a case earth wire.

FWIW, the AES/EBU connector is far more durable than USB.

In my own comparisons with the same make/model/brand of AES/EBU vs USB cables, the AES/EBU is better, removing a layer of grain and adding a level of ease. YMMV.

Do you mean all usb cables , Mike?
Since 3 years I use unpowered usb cables . First it was Jcat Ref without power and then Polish Salamandra usb cable with additional grounding and wooden connectors ( type Entreq) between W20 and Lampi Big 7.
In the same time I can play pcm files with La Fontaine fed from W20 , connected with Fadel Art Ref II AES/EBU.
To be honest I can hear the difference but not in the level of digital artifacts , the tonality , sound stage and resolution are different, but not digital grain.
Of cours in my system and for my ears.

[CPP]

If it was time to ditch USB, all of those USB fix em up companies would be out of business, oh my.

[Mechnutt]

I don't see usb dying any time soon. Too many people use computers to store and play music. And the sub $1K USB DAC market seems to be booming with the gluttony of products that are cheap and sound good. I see usb being tweaked and improved. devices like the Regen, Jitterbug and a few others improved usb sound and will be incorporated in new products.

[slowgeezr]

I just hope DSD will continue to develop... PCM too.. Not much of an MQA fan!

I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.

[La Dolce Vita]

I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.

At this point I tend to agree with you... I am encouraged and enthused about MQA and do enjoy it but... not there yet hook, line and sinker...



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[Mike]

I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.

Steve - full blown MQA? What are you using for a DAC?


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[nonesup]

Probably Wadax, is the only company that has been using UPnP (Pre One), has abandoned this connection, to use USB in its latest DAC (Atlantis and the next Akadia). The designer states that with preferred USB correctly implemented and that in the past had many problems of disconnections with UPnP. In my experience with Lumin ZERO disconnections in almost four years.

[nonesup]

I think that who really makes it fantastic, is MSB with its modular system. Mr. client you choose the entry that you like.

[mdp632]

In my personal opinion yes. If were to compare high end audio to the video industry. Well, you don't see many people running Composite, S-Video, and Component Video anymore. These cables simply can't provide the bandwidth to carry 4k picture and uncompressed audio. A must for 4K , HDR, Dolby atmos etc...

USB for high end audio was a just a stop gap and a matter of convenience. It was designed for printers and not high end end audio. The legacy SPDIF and AES are better but, still flawed.

IMHO, I think the is2 interface adopted by PS Audio, Esoteric and MSB is probably the way of the future for high end audio applications.

[slowgeezr]

Steve - full blown MQA? What are you using for a DAC?


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Yes, full blown MQA. I suppose one could purchase a DAC that could make it sound better, but the DAC I listened to was very good, at least to my ears.

Mike, I'm not sure of the brand of DAC, but the point was that with that DAC, I listened to the same tracks in MQA and DSD and Redbook and MQA came close, but not quite as realistic to me as the other formats. Perhaps if I had listened to other tracks, I might have had a different conclusion, but I don't think so. I didn't listen so much for dynamic impact, or timbre, or details, etcetera, I listened with "what sounds most lifelike, less artificial" as my criteria.

[Mike]

Yes, full blown MQA. I suppose one could purchase a DAC that could make it sound better, but the DAC I listened to was very good, at least to my ears.

Mike, I'm not sure of the brand of DAC, but the point was that with that DAC, I listened to the same tracks in MQA and DSD and Redbook and MQA came close, but not quite as realistic to me as the other formats. Perhaps if I had listened to other tracks, I might have had a different conclusion, but I don't think so. I didn't listen so much for dynamic impact, or timbre, or details, etcetera, I listened with "what sounds most lifelike, less artificial" as my criteria.

Thanks Steve.

[slowgeezr]

One thing that might have had an impact was that the MQA files were created from streamed files. Perhaps the streamer wasn't the best? Perhaps streamed MQA files don't sound the same as non-streamed MQA. As with everything in music reproduction, everything matters, right?

[rbbert]

I have to agree with these comments. I have listened to MQA streaming and compared to the Redbook equivalents and preferred the Redbook versions. Also compared the MQA streams against hi-rez and found I preferred the hi-rez. It was pretty close and definitely good enough to listen to and I support it's use for streaming, as the smaller file size allows near Redbook quality to be streamed, however, I remain unconvinced it is as good as Redbook or hi-rez music.

It shouldn't be surprising that some (perhaps many) listeners have this opinion. Whatever claims are made for or against MQA, it is DSP, and just like any other mastering process, some people will like the result and others won't. The mere fact that most or all of today's dynamically over-compressed and often over-processed releases are "artist approved" should demonstrate that.

[Marslo]

" The reports of my death have been greatly exaggerated."
Your Faithfully
Usb cable

http://www.6moons.com/audioreviews2/stavessence/1.html

PS I use the orange one, Salamandra .

[Zaheer]

Hello
Very interesting thread
Some arguments
1. From personnal experience , I have used USB from Auralic Aries , and AES to a Chord DAVE
2. I have tested USB , and AES from Lumin U1

I should say that the AES does sound better ..ON THE DAVE

May be with another DAC it could be different : who knows

The thing is that Computer music is prcessed by the CPU , and some way or the other the cheapest output will be USB
In case of some products, the AES is reclocked , or the USB is galvanised for isolation
What's the point then ?
I guess that USB will not be ditched , for economic reason
More computers on earth than high end streamers ...
Then I can easily understand that AES or I2S or SPDIF may be a better solution
Will it be ditched ... ONLY in the ultra high end arena

Cheers

[Mrppv]

I am big fan of Schiit but that post is 3yrs old. During all these yrs, I am sure Mr Moffat have found a way to be had more from the USB. With the new Schiit's Gen 5 USB board, things might change

Has anyone here tried the Gen 5 upgrade from Schiit?

I've stayed away from USB because there seem to be so many products out there trying to de-crapify or improve its performance, which you don't see with SPDIF.

But if the Gen 5 is as great as some say, might it be better than BNC or AES/EBU? Trying to decide if I should upgrade the (currently unused) USB on my Yggdrasil dac, and try USB for a change. It would also open up some options for trying music servers that are USB only.

[VoicesInMyHead]

One can always debate what is better than the other (and that's part of the fun eh?), but in the end I think it comes down to implementation at several steps. When USB was introduced into the music chain people assumed just because it was digital 1's and 0's they could just use any old printer cable, with time we have learned a lot about the USB interface and we now know that cables matters, source matters, the target input matters and the clocks matters etc etc... maybe USB was/is quite flawed in it's original pure form, but it's also a format that has been heavily improved upon for the last years, maybe more so than any other format, and I doubt we're done yet...

I think what the UpTone Audio guys are doing for USB development is just incredible. If one has a DAC where USB input is preferred (a majority these days I would think), then I would highly recommend to try the latest ISO Regen product from UpTone in the chain, I would be VERY surprised if you would not hear quite a dramatic improvement. I think it's easily one of the cheapest and best improvements when it comes to streaming or digital music playback one can buy today, especially if the source is a computer, NUC or similar, but in the end, most streamers are as well...

As someone who enjoy's trying every little tweak there is though, I can say it can easily get out of hand and I would recommend avoiding adding fixers after fixers, it's like medicating the side-effects caused by the original medication. try to keep it simple, and that's also why I removed my ISO Regen when I upgraded to the UltraRendu.... but, TODAY I think at least one of these devices is a requirement in the USB chain and if one were just to go with one without making too much changes, the ISO Regen would be my absolute recommendation (if you have tried their original USB Regen, it's time to upgrade!). Depending on all the other equipment, the effect will of course be different, but only in very few and rare cases, not audible at all.

[Jim Smith]

Has anyone here tried the Gen 5 upgrade from Schiit?

Yes.

[Mrppv]

Yes.

Would you elaborate? Any opinions about it compared to earlier USB or other types of connections? Thanks.

[Jim Smith]

With my earlier Yggy, I did not care for the USB, in comparison to the AES input, when supplied by the Berkeley Alpha USB converter and AQ Diamond AES cable.

When I had the Yggy Gen. 5 USB update installed, I was frankly surprised to find the Gen. 5 to be more musically involving than the Berkeley rig.

Having just added the Uptone ISO Regen with LPS-2 power supply, it further improved the Yggy USB input.

The problem is that everyone may listen differently and we have different systems, with many not optimized to the room.

So please take it as my opinion for my system, and not a guarantee that it will suit you.