Active Speakers - good, bad or just different?

[Mike]

I have been seeing an increase in the number of high end companies offering active speakers:

Bryston
KEF
Goldmund
Estelon
Avantgarde
...just to name a few.

The ones I've heard or owned, have been excellent and depending on the application (this is the key IMO), a good way to go. What I have encountered is a bit of limiting/handcuffing in terms of "options". Adding that turntable to your system is no longer easy. Want to run two subs, well, maybe only one is possible or none in an active system.

Thoughts?





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[wisnon]

Great!!!

Only limiting factor tends to be less emotional connection with good vocals, like female and male Jazz and pop. Perhaps the DSP does indeed suck out some "life" in the mid/upper bass as a veteran local consultant pointed out.

They tend to be excellent and perhaps unbeatable on percussion pièces and sound very linear and balanced across the 20/20 Spectrum.

[Speedskater]

For multi-driver speakers, using an active powered set-up gives the speaker designer a lot more options. Now the parts for a passive cross-over are getting expensive and difficult to obtain.

[wisnon]

For multi-driver speakers, using an active powered set-up gives the speaker designer a lot more options. Now the parts for a passive cross-over are getting expensive and difficult to obtain.

Plus, ACTIVE has no parasitic robbing of power and inherent phase shifts. Powered means the amps can perfectly match the drivers and DSP means the limits of the drivers can be perfectly set and DRC means that electronic compensation for room nodes and réfections can be utilized to a VERY benefial degree.

[AJ Soundfield]

Ugly

It gives designers the ultimate option, the "amp" is no longer a "piece" in the signal chain puzzle. A competent designer can do stuff not possible to do with "Amp X", like direct coupling, servo and even using transconductance with certain type of moving coil transducers (can't give away all the secrets now ). The amp/speaker becomes a singular circuit design, not a dart board/darts.
Although I understand some like darts! lol
It also makes for the kind of adaptability to speaker/room acoustics near impossible passively. Even some of the inexpensive active monitors down at Sam Ash have LF and HF adjustments and even high pass filters that can make significant improvements to both the sound and adapting to room/system requirements. Many of those do not use DSP.
However, anyone who has even been to a recording studio and seen the 1000 digital processes that go into their most cherished recordings, may not have such a phobia for 1001.
As always, YMMV.

cheers,

AJ

[audio.bill]

While the designer gains new options in optimizing an active speaker system via DSP, there are also some trade-offs and limitations in the flexibility of your resulting system as Mike detailed in the OP. If you're OK with those imposed configuration limitations you can definitely gain significant performance improvements and benefit from the exceptional value which active speakers can provide. The KEF LS50W is an example which is much better sounding than its passive version with most other amplification. Many audiophiles prefer to have more flexibility in configuring their system than is provided by an active speaker system, particularly those with an emphasis on analog source playback.

[the professor]

I think that you would still need a preamp to feed the active speaker system. So I think the flexibility would be the same. Or decide to go without a preamp - same as with a passive system

[AJ Soundfield]

I think that you would still need a preamp to feed the active speaker system. So I think the flexibility would be the same. Or decide to go without a preamp - same as with a passive system

Yep, some still need a preamp, so many options abound, ss, tubes, analog ins, etc, etc. Lots of "rolling" can still take place. Heck, with active speakers, there's even 2 extra power cords to fiddle with!
I actually recommend a nice tube pre or pre/dac combo to go with my class D actives. I find this the best balance, but again, YMMV

cheers,

AJ

[KeithR]

the issue with active speakers is audiophilia nervosa. also, they don't typically make sense for people with analog rigs.

How many people know an audiophile with Meridian speakers? They've been out since the late 80s and always seem to be a niche product despite the high $$.

I've had the Barefoot Audio MM2s on loan for several weeks - they are very good speakers, I just felt better in near field.

[jdandy]

Mike.......Don't overlook two great British companies offering excellent active speakers, ATC and PMC.


ATC SCM40A




PMC MB2-A SE

[Mike Lavigne]

to me on the 'uber level'.........the promise of 'active speakers' is analogous to the promise of multi-channel music.

they are both teases with their theoretical upsides.....but fall short on the execution side.

active speakers do have a real world market in the upper mid-fi/modest hifi/pro audio performance category based on performance value. however; no one has done one with ultimate performance in mind......there is always a 'but' involved. therefore they do not get taken seriously. and it's not because anyone thinks it can't be done, only that it has not been done.

ask a speaker manufacturer who does build 'uber' speakers why they have not done one active? you would get some interesting answers. likely that 'our dealers' want to sell electronics, or something like that.....or maybe that the amps we prefer do not fit in a speaker chassis....or the right amps added to our price would be too much money......or ????

then you look at multi-channel music, and you get stuck that it's all digital. which means it's never going to be an ultimate. easily the best multichannel I've heard is 4 track tape. killed any multi-channel digital. so the thought of how great it could be is just a tease. since no one is doing analog multi-channel. not that it's not possible.

so to answer the question; active speakers are 'ok'......they are the answer to some system questions. but have upper limits of performance due to their market targets.

[a.wayne]

to me on the 'uber level'.........the promise of 'active speakers' is analogous to the promise of multi-channel music.

they are both teases with their theoretical upsides.....but fall short on the execution side.

active speakers do have a real world market in the upper mid-fi/modest hifi/pro audio performance category based on performance value. however; no one has done one with ultimate performance in mind......there is always a 'but' involved. therefore they do not get taken seriously. and it's not because anyone thinks it can't be done, only that it has not been done.

ask a speaker manufacturer who does build 'uber' speakers why they have not done one active? you would get some interesting answers. likely that 'our dealers' want to sell electronics, or something like that.....or maybe that the amps we prefer do not fit in a speaker chassis....or the right amps added to our price would be too much money......or ????

then you look at multi-channel music, and you get stuck that it's all digital. which means it's never going to be an ultimate. easily the best multichannel I've heard is 4 track tape. killed any multi-channel digital. so the thought of how great it could be is just a tease. since no one is doing analog multi-channel. not that it's not possible.

so to answer the question; active speakers are 'ok'......they are the answer to some system questions. but have upper limits of performance due to their market targets.

Agree ,

IMO, quasi -active is the best compromise with full passive beating full active ...



regards

[Mrppv]

Would love to hear the Kii Three which has gotten some great reviews, from both audiophiles and pros.

As attached as I am to my Vivid speakers, I would not be opposed to considering an active system. Actually, I did hear a rumor a while back that Vivid was pondering an active design, which could be great, but ... never heard more about it.

[wisnon]

Have you guys heard the Apologue and Anatta? Very little if any compromise there and these are cetainly Uber implementations. Heck the software is 9 years in development by an egghead Phd.

[Mike Lavigne]

Have you guys heard the Apologue and Anatta? Very little if any compromise there and these are cetainly Uber implementations. Heck the software is 9 years in development by an egghead Phd.

Norman,

you are right, even though I've not heard them from what I've read they are definitely the exception and are 'uber' active speaker efforts and likely succeed on a high level.

they are not candidates for me for a serious system since they digitize everything and your digital source is inbred in the closed system so it can be a dead end in terms of being kept current. for instance, how would you integrate my new MSB Select II dac......you could not get it's full value.....as it's analog result would be re-digitized at the speaker......dumbed down, so to speak. I'm not saying it's digital performance is not excellent.

I would expect buyers of those Goldmund active systems are not 'fiddlers' of their systems. not that don't demand top level performance.

I'd love someone to do an analog active at the level of the Goldmund products. now that would be an interesting proposition.

[wisnon]

Yes...not for fiddlers but not dead end either. The mark 2 software upgrade is what took it from very good to excellent. Much the same what happened to MSB Select 1 to 2. From meh to eye popping. LoL.

Do not underestimate the Alize 7 dac built into their active speakers nor their Telos amp tech. The Anatta may be the most impresdive demo I have heard to date.

[wisnon]

Besides...the parametrically based DRC is a wonder in itself. Basically you model the room in 3D space and then apply digital correction with no corruption of the time domain.

[wisnon]

Analog active at that level is FM acoustics. You pay $$$ though.

[Mike Lavigne]

Yes...not for fiddlers but not dead end either. The mark 2 software upgrade is what took it from very good to excellent. Much the same what happened to MSB Select 1 to 2. From meh to eye popping. LoL.

Do not underestimate the Alize 7 dac built into their active speakers nor their Telos amp tech. The Anatta may be the most impresdive demo I have heard to date.

I don't underestimate the quality of the 'uber' Goldmund gear, but closed systems are closed. I had a 'world beating' closed system with my Rockport, and the world passed it by. it's a huge investment where all your eggs are in one basket.

it's a product fit for specific people with particular needs. and it does that perfectly. but it's synergy has a down side in lack of agility to adjust to changes.

[wisnon]

I am sure there will be a Mark 3 in due course.

[asiufy]

Would love to hear the Kii Three which has gotten some great reviews, from both audiophiles and pros.

As attached as I am to my Vivid speakers, I would not be opposed to considering an active system. Actually, I did hear a rumor a while back that Vivid was pondering an active design, which could be great, but ... never heard more about it.

The Kii is one fantastic package, possibly the best active system that I know of, and while it can be better than many systems with separates, we have systems in our store that will beat it easily, albeit at multiple times the Kii's price.

But again, for what it's supposed to do, and for what it costs, it's hard to beat the Kiis.

[wisnon]

There will surely be a Mk3 and a Mk4, etc.

FM Acoustics was one of the other impressive Uber signal processing demo I heard. Linkwitz is nice but not at that level, imho.

[Rhapsody]

I would invite anyone to hear our Goldmund Satya ($110K) system. Running with Tara Labs Grand Master PC's and two REL 212SE subs, and any input source, tape, vinyl, cd or Aurender. Would enjoy your opinion after hearing this system regarding active system capabilities.

[4N6]

I also agree that, in theory, an active system has many advantages. I heard a Linn Klimax Exakt DSM/Klimax 350 system a couple of weeks ago (https://www.linn.co.uk/music-systems/klimax). It was an amazing system. Cool when the speaker cables are basically Cat5 or 6 Ethernet cables. Small footprint single component to control the music - very sleek. Nice iPad control of the music library. The sound was spectacular. They even had a Linn Sondek turntable hooked up to it. Yes, it had to go thru A/D conversion to be played, but after hearing a number of albums thru it, I had to admit that it sounded very good. All-in-all...quite impressive.

[Rob181]

The real problem now is the improvement (?) in DAC technology makes a 2 year old product redundant...

Is it really redundant...or just out of fashion...says the guy with a very special bespoke Phillips TDA 1541 chip based DAC...

[a.wayne]

Analog active at that level is FM acoustics. You pay $$$ though.

Im sure the Goldmund is pretty pricey too, have you heard Manny's setup , how is it ...?


Edit: Ok saw where you answered that ....

[wisnon]

Manuel Huber of FM? Outstanding stuff...but makes Goldmund seem cheap. His phone preamp is magical.

[a.wayne]

Manuel Huber of FM? Outstanding stuff...but makes Goldmund seem cheap. His phone preamp is magical.

Yes, I know there is one local to me , BTW Manny has been to Sabina via Jacks hill ....

[wisnon]

I am in Switzerland...but met him and heard his stuff in Warsaw at Adam's show.

[AJ Soundfield]

I think this could be settled by an active vs passive system at 20 paces

[wisnon]

Regarding passive speakers, I heard great stuff about the LumenWhite prototype Kyara compact loudspeaker.

[a.wayne]

I think this could be settled by an active vs passive system at 20 paces

I'm game .......

[allforhifi]

I'm an apologist that the simpler the better. For me to have active speakers is not a limitation, on the contrary.
The ideal situation is to have a speaker with only the drivers inside and use an external active crossover, so the components are not affected by the vibrations and we have all the freedom to choose the amplifiers that we want to connect directly to the speakers.
With an external active crossover, in addition to using the frequency cuts recommended by the manufacturer of the speaker we can optimize the cutoff frequency and gain of each driver to better tune the system and integrate it better with our room.
In this context the quality of the speaker cables and the amplifiers is not so critical because the absence of components between amplifier and speaker compensates for any loss of quality due to less investment in cables and amplification.
Most people have two- or three-way speakers, that is, you only need 2 stereo amplifiers in the first case and 3 stereo or 2 amplifiers with 3 channels in the second case.
I must remember that those who have speakers with passive crossovers easily turns them into speakers without electronics.

[Speedskater]

The real problem now is the improvement (?) in DAC technology makes a 2 year old product redundant...
Is it really redundant...or just out of fashion......

I don't think that redundant is the word that you are looking for.

redundant
1. Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous.
2. Needlessly repetitive; verbose.

But all a newer DSP DAC does is give a loudspeaker designer better tools to design with.

[Mike]

I don't think that redundant is the word that you are looking for.

redundant
1. Exceeding what is necessary or natural; superfluous.
2. Needlessly repetitive; verbose.

But all a newer DSP DAC does is give a loudspeaker designer better tools to design with.

Obsolete perhaps?

If they use FPGA technology, perhaps they can give it a longer life.


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[Mordante]

I do not see what DSP, room correction or other equalizations have to do with active vs passive speakers.

When I look at active speakers most just have a analogue input. The idea of active speakers is attractive but active speakers with a acceptable WaF and acceptable price are rare.

I hope one day I'll have the chance to listen to some active speakers like the ME-Geithain 901K.

[AJ Soundfield]

but active speakers with a acceptable WaF and acceptable price are rare.

Well, those issues are going to be rather subjective now...

[Mordante]

Well, those issues are going to be rather subjective now...

Almost everything in live is.

[LAT]

The other problem with active speakers is boredom of the almost flawless mate.
I've had my ATC SCM150 actives with C6 sub since 2005. I can honestly say I miss the excitement I think I remember in the 20 years prior to this purchase. Buying speakers and mix and matching power sources. With active's it's all been done and done right out of the box.
I've thought of changing and I've looked. At Axpona and CES I auditioned, Grand Utopia's, Wilson's, Magico, KEF Blade's, all which sounded good and somewhat different but not better than what I hear at home.
So I'll sit on my hands till I get the urge again to wander.
Go active and you'll never go back.👍🏻

[wisnon]

Yes, I know there is one local to me , BTW Manny has been to Sabina via Jacks hill ....

I read too quickly. I now get what you were saying. LoL

BTW, I was at Joe manleys house last Sunday listing to his sweet Apogee setup! Next time I will try to look you up!

[nicoludio]

I do not see what DSP, room correction or other equalizations have to do with active vs passive speakers.

The idea of active speakers is attractive but active speakers with a acceptable WaF and acceptable price are rare.

With digital active speakers like the Avantgarde Zero XD, having DSP can do wonders. Its time and phase corrected within a listening window of 2 - 4 m from the speakers. Consequently, it sounds unusually coherent for a horn speaker. Also, the DRC/parametric EQ helps to compensate for the room quite well.

As for active speakers with decent WAF (subjective anyway):

- Avantgarde Zero XD
- Manger S1 or, for a stand mount, C1
- Adam Audio Classic series (which look fairly conventional)
- Dutch and Dutch
- ATC SCM series
- Kii Audio

[nicoludio]

The other problem with active speakers is boredom of the almost flawless mate.
I've had my ATC SCM150 actives with C6 sub since 2005. I can honestly say I miss the excitement I think I remember in the 20 years prior to this purchase. Buying speakers and mix and matching power sources. With active's it's all been done and done right out of the box.
I've thought of changing and I've looked. At Axpona and CES I auditioned, Grand Utopia's, Wilson's, Magico, KEF Blade's, all which sounded good and somewhat different but not better than what I hear at home.
So I'll sit on my hands till I get the urge again to wander.
Go active and you'll never go back.

Ah ... one of (or is it the) pioneers of active speakers. At least you get to mix and match sources and pre-amps.

With the Avantgarde Zero XD, I am "reduced" to playing with digital cables, inputs (AES/EBU vs S/PDIF vs USB sound quite different), power cables and power conditioning (balanced power). Using the DRC/parametric EQ, I can adjust the sound to taste too, if I was so inclined.

Having said that, I was wondering what you found to be better (or preferred) in the SCM150 compared to the speakers that you have mentioned?

[tom_hankins]

Would love to hear the Kii Three which has gotten some great reviews, from both audiophiles and pros.

As attached as I am to my Vivid speakers, I would not be opposed to considering an active system. Actually, I did hear a rumor a while back that Vivid was pondering an active design, which could be great, but ... never heard more about it.

Very good speaker system. Best active I have heard and easy to make right in any room you use them in.

[nicoludio]

Depending on how it's configured, the Spatial Audio X-1 could be an interesting active speaker. Vinnie Rossie even makes a bi-amp module for the X-1. In that guise, perhaps an ambitious active system?

First review by Stereoplay.de:

https://static1.squarespace.com/stat...lowres_pdf.PDF

[Donald Thumb]

My dream system is active:

Kef Blade "Exakt" (tri-wiring binding posts & crossover in a separate box, 10% more expensive than normal Blade) > 6x Linn Klimax Solo monoblocks > 2x Linn Klimax Exaktbox Katalyst > Linn Klimax Katalyst DSM Exakt version
Ideal room would be custom made and 63 square meters (9X7X4).

The Linn Klimax Katalyst DSM is superior souding to a similar priced turntable setup (many people ditched their turntables for it), so 6 channel AD/DA conversion of this caliber per speaker, with the phase correct and time aligned crossover and B&K Curve frequency response at listening position makes everything else redundant, it is the holy grail (full range point source, time aligned and phase correct with perfect frequency response). The room would be as close to perfect as possible, with the digital dsp giving the last 5% impossible with conventional treatment

But hey, that's me, I'm a weird guy haha

[Donald Thumb]

Just to clarify why, I've been at at Lynn demo using Kef Blades with Katalyst passive vs Klimax active

The Katalyst upgrade used only as DAC with passive amps makes the older Klimax with the same passive amps sound like a toy
The active old Klimax vs the new Katalyst with passive amps makes the same difference but in favor of the old Klimax, that's how important the crossover dsp is.
Now imagine the difference with the Katalyst Active

[Glareskin]

I do not see what DSP, room correction or other equalizations have to do with active vs passive speakers.

They can do without. However the advantage of active speakers is that you can do other stuff that you can do with passive.

Already in the early 1970's Philips had a speaker correction system called Motional Feedback in their top line speakers. This was a concept with a piezo element built in the woofer sending information about the movement back to comparison electronics allowing the amplifier to correct the signal.


This gave an improved control over the speakers and allowed low frequency response to 20Hz.

Nowadays companies like Backes & Müller (B&M), Avantgarde Acoustics Grimm Audio and Kii use technologies to compensate negative effects i a different, modern way. Especially Kii has a (in my opinion) revolutionary design where the use DSP in combination with speakers around the housing to create anti-sound compensation for negative effects like side and back-wall. Therefore creating an astonishing clear, deep and loud, reverb free bass especially for the compact box.


So DSP and other electronics necessary? No, however they can make more out of an active speaker than just the sum of matched amps and chassis in the same box.

[wisnon]

With digital active speakers like the Avantgarde Zero XD, having DSP can do wonders. Its time and phase corrected within a listening window of 2 - 4 m from the speakers. Consequently, it sounds unusually coherent for a horn speaker. Also, the DRC/parametric EQ helps to compensate for the room quite well.

As for active speakers with decent WAF (subjective anyway):

- Avantgarde Zero XD
- Manger S1 or, for a stand mount, C1
- Adam Audio Classic series (which look fairly conventional)
- Dutch and Dutch
- ATC SCM series
- Kii Audio

What about KEF LS50 Wireless?

[targa02]

Hi Everyone. I am new to this forum, but not new to the hobby. I agree with allforhifi completely. I first fell in love with active speakers with Emerald Physics when Clayton Shaw owned the company. I had DSP, crossovers, and tri-amplification. Talk about dynamics! But, the system had too many variables and was not WAF friendly. I moved to ATC 50SCM speakers. I wish I never sold them. Plug a great DAC with volume control ahead of them and sit back and listen to great music. But, as LAT says, you get bored. There is not much to "play" with and we audiophiles tend to like to experiment with our systems. My next speakers (I have a deposit placed) will have external crossovers and will be active and I will be able to change amps.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum targa, thank you for joining.