Dedicated lines from subpanel

[tjbhuler]

Hi there I am in the midst of getting my dedicated lines installed in my music room. So far have planned for a subpanel to be installed at about 2' away from my mains.

The reason for a subpanel is because my main panel is fully occupied so my electrician advised for a subpanel to be installed. They will be feeding my audio circuits only. I will be installing 2 lines rated at 20amps using 10awg.

I did the measurements and the length of my lines from the subpanel to the first outlet is 48' in length and the other outlet will be 55'. Both of the outlets are placed over at each end left and right side of front wall.

Everything seems to be fine but I have some questions that I'm still not sure of.

1) Which will be a better option shorter run of cable between the main panel to subpanel and longer run of cables between subpanel to the outlets OR a longer run from main panel to the sub panel and shorter run from sub panel to my outlets?

2) There is a discrepancy of 7' in length between both dedicated lines to the outlet. I read around and some advocate to keep it at same length this is to avoid differances between both grounding line potentials, but this seems to be hard for me to do so. Will this be an issue causing all sorts of noise when I use both outlets? Or is this just a theoretical thing that actually doesn't cause any issues? I did try to re run those lines but it is hard due to those lightings installed.

My lines are grounded to the same point at the subpanel and then back to the main panel grounding bussbar.

So to my friends here please do advice me on how should I go about it. Will I have any issues that I should take note of?

[Ctsooner]

Will be interesting to hear what folks come back with. What is the specific brand etc of the cable you intend to use? I'm about to embark on the same thing as I moved my system from one wall that had a six pack of dedicated outlets to another wall. I will have some one come in and do something similar. I'm also going to get the Audio Quest Niagara 1000 as a 6 outlet strip. I won't use it for my Vandersteen Quatro's or my Ayre AX5/20 as I want those directly into the wall as they have their own power filter built in (most don't realize these things and they can ruin the sound with others filters, plus why pay for the double filtering that Ayre gives us for free? Never understood that). I will then wait for the new AQ power cords that Garth is about to bring to market (Mike hasn't heard them yet I don't think, but I have and they are KILLER). The least expensive one is going to be priced close to what the NRG 1000 is going for and it smokes ANY power cord I've ever heard. They will be reasonably priced, so many audiophiles will turn their noses up to them, but do a true A/B and the proof will show I feel. I'm going to ask Garth what internal wall cable he recommends as I have loved what he's done for power over the years. He's just gets it and it's all engineering.

[tjbhuler]

Hi Ctsooner it's nice to know there are others who are also going through the same process. I'm from Malaysia we have something that looks just like the standard Romex cable mine is a solid core copper cable 10awg.

[the professor]

I would make the lines the same length. In a 48' span it shouldn't be too hard to put in an extra 7'. I don't know if it truly makes a difference, but in 3 set ups that I know the lengths were the same, no grounding issues ever.

[PMCH]

I ran generic 20 amp, 10awg from my panel to new outlets when I rearranged my system. I had extra spaces in my main panel. My lines are about 25' and 35'. One is for my power conditioner for my amps and one is for my power conditioner for my front end components. It sounds great to me. I noticed more of a difference when I changed 20amp 12awg to 20amp 10awg. I did relocate my audiophile outlets also when I made the switch but they are not the most expensive ones -PS Audio.

[Ctsooner]

I have listened to many outlets. So hard to compare. It a dealer I know has over six top ones and we go from one to the other. It scientific but there were major differences. I bought the AQ outlets and love them.

[Odyssey]

I have listened to many outlets. So hard to compare. It a dealer I know has over six top ones and we go from one to the other. It scientific but there were major differences. I bought the AQ outlets and love them.

A worthwhile read:

http://shunyata.com/index.php/suppor...m-optimization

[Ctsooner]

Thanks. Read that once before and it's worth while to read it again. I also was told there is a specific wire that is 10ga that many manufacturer's use. I'll find out the name and post it. Not the biggest of deals, but anything that isn't too expensive and can be done fairly easily is worth it. I have an electrician who I will need to get everything for and then have him read a few things I put together. I need to find out more about star grounding. I'm not a tech guy per say, so even a few things in that paper I'll need to reread and think about. I also saw a white paper elsewhere that was similar. I agree on the really expensive outlets just shifting the sound. That's why I like the AQ outlets. It's exactly what Garth said that you need the vise grip connection and just a top quality sold copper tang that's coated to reduce oxidation. I believe that's what he said, lol....

A worthwhile read:

http://shunyata.com/index.php/suppor...m-optimization

[tjbhuler]

I have read that link from shunyata and that's where it was advocated to ensure same length of grounding wire. Looks like I will have to re route them.

Any take on the subpanel does one keep it nearer to the main panel or near to the room hence keeping the dedicated lines shorter?

[Ctsooner]

Not sure on the sub box, but I have mind in the basement with the main panel. I would think the shortest run would be the best. My take away is the same gauge grounding wire and same length for everything., I am going to ask Garth at Audioquest what specific wire he recommends as well as what make box, whole house protector etc... I just trust the guy as I know him and love what he's doing now that he's fully in charge with no restrictions. That's just me...if anyone wants a used (no scratches original box, glove etc...) Synergistic Research powercell 10 mk 2 Tesla let me know as I'm making wholesale changes in my power as I start from scratch, lol.... Please delete the last if I'm not supposed to say this in this forum. I will be putting it up for sale on the net once I"m back from my Cali trip next week, lol.....

The more I read that paper, the more I like it. Alway's liked they products too.

[the professor]

Not sure about the sub panel either. I would guess that as long as you use a big wire between - say 4-6 gauge between the panel and sub panel you would be good to go. Cost wise, i would think that keeping it closer would be cheaper.

[Odyssey]

Arthur Kelm's Low Noise Guidelines and Ground Rod Installation are worth a look:

http://ground1.com/index.htm

[tjbhuler]

Nice that's a good site to check out thanks !!

[Ctsooner]

Wow, fast becoming my favorite thread. Thanks. I'm also going to reach out to Garth Powell at AQ about his thoughts and what components he'd use to set up all of this. I know he'll say the AQ Niagara for your power outlets, cords and conditioner (or whatever he calls it), but I want to know what he'd do UP TO the outlet and why. I'll share what he does if I have time.

[tjbhuler]

I just read the link sent by Odyssey amazing answer that i have been looking for is in that link!!!

Taken from that site:
"The next factor to consider is the length of wiring to the receptacle. I recommend that the power panel be located as close as possible to the main components of the system. This allows the impedance of the system to be as low possible. In studio and theater applications, this should be kept to less than 50 feet. For audiophile/stereo applications, wire should not exceed 20 feet"

So based on that looks like I should be placing my sub panel nearer to my room and keeping my lines to outlet shorter this is to maintain a low impedence.

Thanks for the link !!!!

[MusicMan]

I just read the link sent by Odyssey amazing answer that i have been looking for is in that link!!!

Taken from that site:
"The next factor to consider is the length of wiring to the receptacle. I recommend that the power panel be located as close as possible to the main components of the system. This allows the impedance of the system to be as low possible. In studio and theater applications, this should be kept to less than 50 feet. For audiophile/stereo applications, wire should not exceed 20 feet"

So based on that looks like I should be placing my sub panel nearer to my room and keeping my lines to outlet shorter this is to maintain a low impedence.

Thanks for the link !!!!

I too found the link to be full of great information. I wished the Load Box specifications were accompanied by manufacturers and models however. I have found that the Square D QO (not Homeline) model mentioned elsewhere. So, that's probably a good place to start, if not end. Anyone have other Box or Wired recommendations?

[Speedskater]

The three best papers about hi-fi and AC power are.

from Middle Atlantic:
Power Distribution and Grounding of Audio, Video and Telecommunications Equipment White Paper
Integrating Electronic Equipment and Power into Rack Enclosures
Optimized Power Distribution and Grounding for Audio, Video and Electronic Systems
http://www.middleatlantic.com/resour...te-papers.aspx

from Jim Brown, past AES committee chair on EMI/RFI:
Power and Grounding For Audio and Audio/Video Systems
A White Paper for the Real World
http://www.audiosystemsgroup.com/SurgeXPowerGround.pdf

from Bill Whitlock, of Jensen Transformer and THAT Corp.
"Overview of Audio System Grounding and Interfacing"
9/4/2012
http://centralindianaaes.files.wordp...notes-v1-0.pdf

[ScottW]

Take a look at the Cutler Hammer CH style panel. It is constructed much like the Square D QO, but adds a retention clip where the breaker plugs into the buss.

I have found that the Square D QO (not Homeline) model mentioned elsewhere. So, that's probably a good place to start, if not end. Anyone have other Box or Wired recommendations?

[MusicMan]

Take a look at the Cutler Hammer CH style panel. It is constructed much like the Square D QO, but adds a retention clip where the breaker plugs into the buss.

Thanks ScottW!

[ScottW]

Sure MM. Also if you can, get a panel with a 225 amp main, but this may require a new meter base(320 amp) because most of the standard meter bases are rated for 200 amp. I did this when my house was built and it cost me about $1k extra. I am sure other have mentioned going with 10/2 WG Romex and as many dedicated circuits as you can( I have all 11 circuits in my stereo room dedicated). According to my older code book 10/2 WG is rated for 40 amps. I have two 30 amp breakers running my monster mono amps.

Thanks ScottW!

[LenWhite]

I had a dedicated 100A electrical sub-panel with (4) 20A circuits installed just outside my dedicated listening room. Twisted pair wiring (#12) is used for each circuit with the neutral and hot wires wrapped on 2" centers and the ground wire placed parallel in PVC conduit. A paper presented at the 2010 AES 129th Convention shows this method has the lowest ground voltage induction tested.

[Speedskater]

That's a great way to do AC power.

The Bill Whitlock paper:

Ground Loops: The Rest of the Story
Bill Whitlock, AES Fellow and Jamie Fox, P.E.
This paper was presented at the AES 129th Convention, 4-7 November 2010, San Francisco, CA, USA

http://www.jensen-transformers.com/w...ic-Version.pdf

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
random general thoughts for other planners:
a] Most hi-fi setups only need one 20 Amp circuit.
b] I like to oversize the wires by one size.
c] Only need one twist about every 4 or 5 inches.
d] The electrician will go bananas when you tell him about twisting.
e] Because it's plastic conduit (rigid or flexible) Isolated Ground receptacles are not beneficial.

[watts]

Something else to add I haven't seen mentioned here already: Audio Sensibility can sell cryoed 10 gauge romex, or can cryo anything else you want frozen, if you are into that sort of thing...

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/acc...=0&sort=normal

http://audiosensibility.com/blog/technology/cryogenics/

[Speedskater]

A cyroed cable only stays cyroed until you flex it.

[Arnoldhasmail]

A cyroed cable only stays cyroed until you flex it.

Really? I didn't know that.

I brought a dedicated line up from my panel but didn't use anything special. Still found a huge difference in noise and sound quality...

Now outlets...they made another huge increase in sound quality...but haven't tried outlet covers yet...

[jerbil]

MSB electronics has a good article in their KB re: dedicated circuits, gauge, and some specific things to look for too.

[brad225]

If you are taking your runs from the main panel be sure to keep all of the breakers on the same phase.

You will have breakers on both sides of the panel end to end, but they will be every other breaker space vertically. This is how the main buss bar is constructed.

[Speedskater]

MSB electronics has a good article in their KB re: dedicated circuits, gauge, and some specific things to look for too.

any links?

[jerbil]

http://www.msbtechnology.com/faq/how...or-good-power/

[Speedskater]

Originally Posted by Speedskater

A cyroed cable only stays cyroed until you flex it.

Really? I didn't know that.

There is an audiophile who posts on some of the forums, but his day job is engineering at a major research lab that involves super conductors. He has installed over 250,000 kilometers (or maybe it was miles) of wire and cable. In short he is an expert on cryo and cable and I recall that he said that just flexing the cable destroys the small benefit of cyro.