Magico S3 mk2

[Kuoppis]

Double post.

[Melbguy1]

Ha! You amended your statement afterwards, after my comment. That's cheating .

But the argument still stands, actually both do:

a) My point about the MPro was that it proves the point, that based on Magico view, aluminum is not the superior material for woofers reaching down to very low frequencies - given that the MPro is Magico SOTA in floorstanders (reaches down to 20 MHz).

b) And even if the MPro is very costly, yet graphene woofers are viable in the S3 mk2s, thus there is no good reason why this superior material was used in the MPro - however not in the S7 and S5 mk2 launching later - but then again in the S3 mk2.


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I wish you well in your career at Magico LLC.

[Kuoppis]

I wish you well in your career at Magico LLC.

It's just simple logic, that's all.

You should try it some time, might be fun.


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[socfan12]

Congrats, great choice. There might be elements to Magico business approach I do not fully appreciate, but I am absolute sure it is a truly superb speaker.

I will probably have a peek listening to it myself in Munich (even though the acoustic conditions at the show are not good) and would be keen to hear your thoughts.


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Kuoppis,

I can see that. I think Magico's output is driven by Alon's desire to build the best speaker he possibly can throughout the lineup and to improve what he can when he can. I can understand that can be disconcerting to some from a business perspective. But as I said earlier, I really welcome Magico's innovations with each new speaker introduction; they are easily heard and appreciated.

[Kuoppis]

I think Magico's output is driven by Alon's desire to build the best speaker he possibly can throughout the lineup and to improve what he can when he can. I can understand that can be disconcerting to some from a business perspective. But as I said earlier, I really welcome Magico's innovations with each new speaker introduction; they are easily heard and appreciated.

That's a fair point and I am sure you will enjoy your new speakers. It will be interesting to hear how the new woofers impact the total package. Maybe the graphene woofers add a little of the M3 magic to the S3 mk2s.

Mike already said they sound great out of the box.


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[kzhtoo]

Kuoppis,

I can see that. I think Magico's output is driven by Alon's desire to build the best speaker he possibly can throughout the lineup and to improve what he can when he can. I can understand that can be disconcerting to some from a business perspective. But as I said earlier, I really welcome Magico's innovations with each new speaker introduction; they are easily heard and appreciated.

Magico can do all these and still make things easier for the customers to upgrade. They aren't mutually exclusive.

[Elberoth]

It all makes me wonder ... are we gonna see the S7 mk 2 next, with a convex top (the S7 is the last flat topped speaker in the whole S-lineup left, still in mk 1 form) and graphene woofers ? Munich 2018 maybe

[Elberoth]

S3 introduces aluminum woofer => S7 => S5 mk2.

The aluminium woofer with a nanotubes/carbonfibre dust cap was first seen in the S5 mk 1, not the S3 mk 1.

The S3 mk 1 was the first speaker to utilise the eliptical midrange sub-enclosure made of a polymer material that was later incorporated in S7 and S5 mk 2 designs.

[BayStBroker]

Hey Mike,
Any update on how the new S3's are sounding? I assume you've been playing them round the clock to burn them in. Have you had a chance to listen this weekend to some music?

[Mike]

Hey Mike,
Any update on how the new S3's are sounding? I assume you've been playing them round the clock to burn them in. Have you had a chance to listen this weekend to some music?

Still burning in. Will do some initial critical listening in a week.


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[Kuoppis]

The aluminium woofer with a nanotubes/carbonfibre dust cap was first seen in the S5 mk 1, not the S3 mk 1.

Yes, already aluminum, but still the modified ScanSpeak design, while the S3 had the next gen in-house internal design also used in later models.


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[Elberoth]

Yes, already aluminum, but still the modified ScanSpeak design, while the S3 had the next gen in-house internal design also used in later models.

I'm not sure I know what you are talking about.

[Kuoppis]

I'm not sure I know what you are talking about.

The aluminum woofer for the S5 mk1 was sourced from ScanSpeak.


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[Elberoth]

And how do you know where the S3 aluminium woofer was sourced from ? How does it have anything to do with said woofer quality, esp. compared to S5 mk 1 woofer ?

[Kuoppis]

And how do you know where the S3 aluminium woofer was sourced from ? How does it have anything to do with said woofer quality, esp. compared to S5 mk 1 woofer ?

Typically reviewers talk to manufacturers and the manufacturers tell them stuff they write about. I read what reviewers write and also talk to manufacturers. That sort of stuff. And in more earnest, that has been stated publicly.

Regarding woofer quality, at least I have not stated anything about woofer quality, ScanSpeak do make very good elements. The question was rather about product generations and technology evolution.

In earlier models (e.g. V3) Magico have also been using the highly regarded ScanSpeak Revelator tweeter and now they make their own.


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[Elberoth]

Magico does not manufacture their own drive units. They do not have the tooling to manufacture baskets, magnet systems, diaphrams etc. They source their drive units from the renowed drive unit manufacturers, who build them up to their specs. Some of them (say S-series mk 1 tweeter) look almost exactly like the standard versions that those manufacturers offer, and some are customised beyond recognition.

You have posted a comment, that 'S3 introduces aluminum woofer => S7 => S5 mk2.'

That statement is false. The aluminium woofer was first seen in the S5 mk 1. The S3 mk 1 didn't bring anything new to the table as such.

[Kuoppis]

Well, they all do have different magnets. S5 mk1 woofer was a ScanSpeak design with the Magico dust cap added. The later ones were more customized, and that was the reference.

It is indeed a good question when an element should be attributed to a certain speaker manufacturer: If it's implemented in a certain brand's speaker, if it consists of an element manufacturers standard components but has some modifications (e.g. the dust cap or motor is different), if it's custom manufactured to a speaker maker's spec? I would guess different people might have varying views on that.

I guess, Magico might themselves not agree with the statement that they do not manufacture their own drive units, with all the marketing about diamond coater beryllium and graphene membranes.

[Elberoth]

FYI: I believe that S5 mk 1 and S3 mk 1 use Scan Speak sourced bass drivers, both with custom dust caps, while S7 uses what looks like Seas sourced bass drivers, with a custom dustcap and custom diaphgram.

Ofc, there may be other design differences, but it is impossible to tell just by looking from the outside.

[Kuoppis]

...but it is impossible to tell just by looking from the outside.

Absolutely agree. At least I am not so deep into the subject matter I could tell. I have to rely on what reviewers write or I hear from the manufacturers themselves.

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[Elberoth]

I guess, Magico might themselves not agree with the statement that they do not manufacture their own drive units, with all the marketing about diamond coater beryllium and graphene membranes.

There is only ONE berlium dome manufacturer IN THE WORLD - the company called Materion:

https://materion.com/products/beryll...lium-acoustics

They probably let another company diamond coat it. Same with graphene infused diaphgrams.

You really need to learn more about speaker design if you want to engage into discussion at this depth.

The S3 woofers were a new design.

Define new ? New as a customised design ? All drive units used by Magico, are either customised designs of the existing products or a complete custom designs made for them.

Neither S5, S3 nor S7 use off the shelf drive units. They have been all customised for Magico.

[Kuoppis]

So, based on your expert opinion, is the diamond coated beryllium tweeter Magico uses in its recent models a Magico design or is it a Materion design?


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[Kuoppis]

...I believe that S5 mk 1 and S3 mk 1 use Scan Speak sourced bass drivers..

The S3 woofers were a new design.


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[Heavy G]

There is only ONE berlium dome manufacturer IN THE WORLD - the company called Materion:

They probably let another company diamond coat it. Same with graphene infused diaphgrams.

You really need to learn more about speaker design if you want to engage into discussion at this depth.

I thought Paradigm was making their own beryllium tweeter and midrange for the Persona. Is this not the case?

[Elberoth]

So, based on your expert opinion, is the diamond coated beryllium tweeter Magico uses in its recent models a Magico design or is it a Materion design?

I just told you, that Michelin supplies tires to Bugatti Veyron, and you are asking me back, if the Veyron is Bugatti's or Michelin's design

Materion is a berylium dome supplier. They are the only company in the world that makes them for everybody - Scan Speak, Focal, Seas, SB Acoustics etc. The dome itself, is just one of many parts that make a berylium tweeter. The expanded view of the Magico tweeter shows just that:



I'm not sure who manufactures the complete tweeter assy for Magico. If I was to guess, I would say it is probably a custom Scan Speak job. It just doesn't make sense (from the financial point of view) to built things like that in house, even though (in theory) many parts can be sourced from the same suppliers that supply Scanspeak (even they don't make everything inhouse; many of the domes, surrounds and suspension setups they use are supplied to them by a German company Dr. Kurt Mueller GMBH for example).

[Kuoppis]

You are still avoiding the question, a Magico or Materion design?

Magico does not manufacture their own drive units.

Just asking...



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[Elberoth]

I thought Paradigm was making their own beryllium tweeter and midrange for the Persona. Is this not the case?

I'm not sure. You would need to ask Paradigm about this. Personally, I would be surprised if they developed a process to make them inhouse. It just doesn't make sense from the financial point of view. The cost of R+D itself would be enormous from someone who is not deep into metallurgy.

I'm not even sure if those are real berillium drive units (made from berillium foil). Just like TAD (and Yamaha in the NS-1000 and NS-2000 models, made in the 70s/80s), they may have used vaccum deposition process.

I have the Paradigm Persona 5F at home right now - they are nowhere near Magico S5 mk 2 performance wise (and I assume also Magcio S3 mk 2).

[Elberoth]

You are still avoiding the question, a Magico or Materion design?

Materion developed a process in the early 90s to manufacture berilium domes out of pure berilium foil. They only supply the domes. They have nothing to do with tweeter design, just like Michelin had nothing to do with Bugatti Veyron design (Michelin was only asked to develop and supply a specific tire, that could handle speeds in excess of 400km/h+ in a given size - which is what they did).

[Kuoppis]

There is only ONE berlium dome manufacturer IN THE WORLD - the company called Materion

I thought Paradigm was making their own beryllium tweeter and midrange for the Persona. Is this not the case?

I'm not sure. You would need to ask Paradigm about this.

Hmmm.


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[mep]

I just told you, that Michelin supplies tires to Bugatti Veyron, and you are asking me back, if the Veyron is Bugatti's or Michelin's design

Materion is a berylium dome supplier. They are the only company in the world that makes them for everybody - Scan Speak, Focal, Seas, SB Acoustics etc. The dome itself, is just one of many parts that make a berylium tweeter. The expanded view of the Magico tweeter shows just that:



I'm not sure who manufactures the complete tweeter assy for Magico. If I was to guess, I would say it is probably a custom Scan Speak job. It just doesn't make sense (from the financial point of view) to built things like that in house, even though (in theory) many parts can be sourced from the same suppliers that supply Scanspeak (even they don't make everything inhouse; many of the domes, surrounds and suspension setups they use are supplied to them by a German company Dr. Kurt Mueller GMBH for example).

When did Focal quit making their own BE tweeter domes? They certainly used to.

[Elberoth]

When did Focal quit making their own BE tweeter domes? They certainly used to.

Sorry to disappoint. They never have manufactured the Be domes themselves. Just like Bugatti (Porsche, Ferrari etc) never manufactured tires themselves.

While there are about four sources for beryllium worldwide, only one operation can provide beryllium foil in useful thickness for speaker diaphragms, and that is Materion Electrofusion INC.

[mep]

Sorry to disappoint. They never have manufactured the Be domes themselves. Just like Bugatti (Porsche, Ferrari etc) never manufactured tires themselves.

While there are about four sources for beryllium worldwide, only one operation can provide beryllium foil in useful thickness for speaker diaphragms, and that is Materion Electrofusion INC.

Seems to me that I read an article in either SP or TAS years ago that detailed a factory visit to Focal and they talked about where they kept their BeO under lock and key and the machine they used to stamp out the domes. I don't think I dreamed this up and either way I wouldn't be "disappointed" because I have no dog in the fight. Many companies quit working with BeO because it is a carcinogen. So, I hope we aren't confusing the manufacturers of the BeO foil with companies that stamp domes from BeO foil they purchase.

[Elberoth]

That is ofc a possibility. Although why bother with machining poisonous Be* and stamping their own domes, if your foil supplier can do it for you ? Makes no sense to me.

*The commercial use of beryllium requires the use of appropriate dust control equipment and industrial controls at all times because of the toxicity of inhaled beryllium-containing dusts that can cause a chronic life-threatening allergic disease in some people called berylliosis.^[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium

[LVB]

I have the Paradigm Persona 5F at home right now - they are nowhere near Magico S5 mk 2 performance wise (and I assume also Magcio S3 mk 2).

I am disappointed to hear that the Paradigm Persona 5F are not up to the S5 Mk2 level, they looked promising. Can you elaborate?

[Elberoth]

The S5 are smoother, have much higher dynamic contrast (which I directly atribute to aluminium enclosure, which is more quiet and leaves less imprint over the music), they image much better, have better resolution through out the range, faster, more articulate bass and much lower reach. There is really no comparo between the two. That said, the Persona 5Fs are almost half the price of the S5 mk 2, so everything have to be put into perspective. It is not a bad speaker. They came after $24k YG Carmel 2s and I certainly enjoy them more.

[LVB]

Would be more comparable to the S3 price, I guess... Maybe Mike can comment on the S5 vs. S3, so we can gage the S3 performance ;-)

[Mike]

The S3 mk2 is more big brother to the S1 mk2 whereas the S5 mk2 is more little brother to the S7.

The S3 mk2 is everything you love about the S1 mk2 with bass that can punch lower and fill a bigger room.

The S5 mk2 is everything you love about the S7, but with a little less bass, more budget friendly and still fill a pretty big room.

The S7 has become a bit forgotten with all the S5 mk2, S3 mk2 talk, but it's the big brother in the series and once you hear it, there is no doubt. It's a big speaker that is seamless and disappears. It can fill the biggest of rooms and can play very very big (and loud).


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[mep]

That is ofc a possibility. Although why bother with machining poisonous Be* and stamping their own domes, if your foil supplier can do it for you ? Makes no sense to me.

*The commercial use of beryllium requires the use of appropriate dust control equipment and industrial controls at all times because of the toxicity of inhaled beryllium-containing dusts that can cause a chronic life-threatening allergic disease in some people called berylliosis.^[6]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beryllium

That's why Focal kept it under lock and key.

[Elberoth]

I would like to read that factory tour. Or better still ask someone at Focal. The devil is in the details. They might have keep the assy room under lock and key, not necessarely had the Be manufacturing site.

You know what - I will email Focal and ask

[audio.bill]

With a quick search I was able to find a clear and definitive statement confirming the in-house manufacturing of Focal's beryllium tweeters in the What Hi-Fi? review of the Focal Diablo Utopia, with the applicable quote excerpt:

"Beryllium is rarely used in hi-fi because of difficulty in manufacturing caused by its toxic nature. But Focal has put a great deal of effort into overcoming these issues, and ended up with a wonderfully clean and detailed performer.

Unlike many rivals – who buy in drive units from OEM suppliers – Focal designs and makes all its drivers in-house. This allows the company to optimise each unit for the speaker it goes into. This is one of the very best tweeters that money can buy."

Now I expect that some will speculate that it could mean they make the driver in-house from a dome that they source elsewhere, but I think the statement is pretty clear in its intended meaning. I don't own Focal speakers or have any vested interest in this, just trying to help find the truth.

You can read the full review at http://www.whathifi.com/focal/diablo-utopia/review

[Elberoth]

I see nothing in the text you quoted that would suggest they manufacture the berilium domes in-house.

Scan Speak or Seas also manufacture their drive units in-house, and yet they buy diaphragms, suspension and surrounds from companies like Materion Electrofusion INC or Dr. Kurt Mueller GMBH.

In keeping with the motoring example - Porsche builds their engines in-house, but they still source spark plugs from Bosch, pistons from Mahle, turbos from Borg, PDK transmission from ZF etc.

[EmiLiuZ]

I will eventually be using the new Vitus Monos with them, but they're delayed until after Munich. Right now I'm just running them in with an integrated (Aavik U-300) and they really sound terrific. I had a friend over last night and he couldn't believe they were just fresh out of their crates. He wrote me last night afterwards and said, "...they completely disappeared better than any other speaker....that is the sound stage they gave us, just music floating in the air."

P.S. he's a retired engineer from VAC.

I love your choice of amplification!

[Elberoth]

I managed to confirm that Focal gets the Be foil from the same supplier as everybody else - Materion Electrofusion INC. They press the domes in-house though - I can only speculate, that Materion does not offer inverted Be domes, which is why Focal had to get their hands dirty. But wherever the dome is pressed - that is still the same dome, made from the very same material.

That said - do not assume all those tweeters sound the same, simply 'cos they use the same domes. Far from it. Dome material is only one part of the equation in the tweeter design.

[KeithR]

have we beat a dead horse here? lol.

[Melbguy1]

have we beat a dead horse here? lol.

Yes perhaps, but you might instead focus on the relative value of some of the posts by one particular member in this thread, rather than the thorough and cogent replies provided in response.

[Elberoth]

I thought Paradigm was making their own beryllium tweeter and midrange for the Persona. Is this not the case?

I have looked more closely at Paradigm and it seems that they use pure berillium dome and pure berillium midrange diaphragm. AFAIK this may be in fact the first to use a pure berillium midrange driver in the world (the TAD one is Vapor Deposited Berillium).

In their marketing materials thae state that the diaphragm is made from TruExtent Pure Berillium, which points to Materion Electrfusion INC - the very same company that supplies Focal, Scan Speak, Seas etc.

[GSOphile]

Apologies for getting a little off topic here, but regarding advances in speaker diaphragm materials, you may have seen the intro of the Yamaha NS-5000s at the Fall 2016 Tokyo Int'l Audio Show. All three drivers (tweeter, midrange, and base) feature Zylon diaphragms at a somewhat affordable price level.

[joeinid]

Welcome to the forum GSOphile, thank you for joining.

[metaphacts]

..That said - do not assume all those tweeters sound the same, simply 'cos they use the same domes. Far from it. Dome material is only one part of the equation in the tweeter design...


[/COLOR]

[Kuoppis]

AFAIK this may be in fact the first to use a pure berillium midrange driver in the world (the TAD one is Vapor Deposited Berillium).

No idea what the manufacturing process was in those days, but didn't Yamaha try this in the 70's with the NS-1000? But they for sure weren't capable of taming the beryllium the same way then it is possible today.

Re-published review, as the Internet didn't exist those days : http://www.stereophile.com/standloud...B7IdAQIjVje.97


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[Elberoth]

No idea what the manufacturing process was in those days, but didn't Yamaha try this in the 70's with the NS-1000? But they for sure weren't capable of taming the beryllium the same way then it is possible today.

No. As I already mentioned, Yamaha NS-1000 and NS-2000 models used vacuum-deposition proces on copper-plated aluminium molds. The NSX-10000 model, introduced in 1986, was the first (and AFAIK the only model) which used pure berillium domes:

Midrange driver used in the NSX-10000 was a dome. Paradigm have introduced what seems to be the first pure Be mid driver with cone diaphragm - much bigger, and I assume much more difficoult to manufacture than any cone.

This is how Paradigm Persona 7" Be mid looks like:


It has quite the surrface area and I can only image how difficoult it is to manufacture. Focal once used to tell people (when they started pressing their Be inverted domes) that Be drivers are so expensive not only because of the cost of the Be itself, but also due to the fact that 90% of the pressed domes ended up in a trash bin (due to cracks and other defects). Now those numbers are supposedly lower as they managed to increase manufacturing process efficiency, but it is still not an easy material to work with.

And BTW, while speaking of the Yamaha - the NS-2000 introduced in 1982 was on of the first speakers that used carbon fibre woofer:



It was 30 years later when Magico introduced their carbon fibre based (and nanotubes reinforced) cones. As you can see, the Yamaha's CF was not even woven.

Yamaha was a true innovator of the 70s and 80s. They had huge R&D budgets, so almost everything was possible.

And btw - those speakers still sound excellent. It was the brittle sounding SS amps of the era that gave them their bad name, not the speakers.