MAGICO M3 - Review

[Mike]

You should stop with this madness and look at some facts:

I assume JA got his Alexia installed by the proper authorities, right?
So just look at these 3 measurements, taken by JA. On-axis, off-axis, and in-room, they tell it all. We have a rare opportunity to see these two different speakers in the same environment, measured similarly.
Look at how much smoother the S5 off-axis response is, that results in a much better in-room response (different scale on the off-axis, but you can see the Alexia wreckage at 30°). No professional installation will change the Alexia poor off-axis performance, and that will make any room interaction impossible to predict or tame (Ignore the blue line on the S5 in-room, that is a different speaker).

S5 MK2:

Alexia:

Great post!

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[Joe P]

I assume JA got his Alexia installed by the proper authorities, right?

As a matter of fact, yes.

Two JA quotes from the review:

"When you buy a pair of Wilson Audio Specialties loudspeakers, the retailer will install them in your home and perform that fine-tuning. In my case, Wilson's Peter McGrath did the deed."

"If I were to retire tomorrow, the Wilson Alexia would be the speaker I would buy to provide the musical accompaniment to that retirement."

[a.wayne]

I guess speaker measurements matters ..

[LVB]

As a matter of fact, yes.

Two JA quotes from the review:

"When you buy a pair of Wilson Audio Specialties loudspeakers, the retailer will install them in your home and perform that fine-tuning. In my case, Wilson's Peter McGrath did the deed."

Looks like he did a lousy job.

"If I were to retire tomorrow, the Wilson Alexia would be the speaker I would buy to provide the musical accompaniment to that retirement."

You should read the S5 review, he said the same thing on the S5 (and the Vivid), plus "My measurements of Magico's S5 Mk.II reveal it to be a superbly well-engineered loudspeaker", something he just couldn't say about the Alexia.

[Melbguy1]

As I predicted, no amp or cable change will change that. 2 or 3 months break in will not change that either. The speaker you had chosen simply lacks the cone area needed to pressurise your big room. This is simple physics.

Why do you think Magico offers Q5 and Q7 models, apart from the Q3 (M3 equivalent) ? For people with thicker wallets ? No, Q5 and Q7 are meant for bigger rooms.

You need to dial back and get the S7 (which is almost the same price in gloss finish as M3) or even the smaller S5 mk 2. The former has three 10" long throw woofers and the later two 10" long throw woofers (compared to 1x 10" and 1x 8" woofers in the Alexia).

IMO going back to the Alexia makes no much sense - there have been people on this forum that upgraded from Alexia to Magico S5 mk 1 (and the current S5 mk 2 is a much better speaker!).

IMO if you have bought the M3 from a Magico dealer, he should help you out. You should request a return of M3 and get the S7 instead. Ofc, the demo will be necessary first.

Unfortunately, from what I read, your dealer seems to be most happy pushing you more new gear instead.

I disagree with your view that no amp or cable change will make a difference to the M3's bass. I think the issue here is timing. As I said earlier...

However I wouldn't put the cart before the horse by considering an amp upgrade just yet. Let your speakers run in, then experiment with speaker positioning. And if you're still not getting enough bass depth and slam, then it's time to consider an amp upgrade.

That is because while the speakers are still running in, the bass drivers are still tight and the x-over parts are still burning in, hence you won't be able to properly assess the impact of any change of amps or cables at this point.

Using fully run in speakers as a reference, I've heard Vitus SM-011 mono's compared to my SIA-025. The mono's had notably better bass control/slam than my integrated (which is no slouch!). The SM-011 mono's also sounded more neutral in tonal balance.

Re: cables, my friend tested Siltech Triple Crown sc's in his $350k system. His conclusion was they have "tremendous bass, ultimate resolution and pinpoint imaging and image depth". He went on to say "you just hear and feel this wave of bass," So I think cables matter and can definitely influence the sound.

Fyi, I asked Mark Jones from Audio by Mark Jones about the differences b/w the S7 & S5 Mk2 and he said the S7 has a slight edge in bass prentation, but interestingly he felt that the S5 Mk2 has slightly better sound staging/imaging due to the Mk2's machined 3D convex top plate which reduces diffraction and vertical standing waves. But that's another story.

I agree with you however that going back to the Alexia makes no sense.

[a.wayne]

You should stop with this madness and look at some facts:

I assume JA got his Alexia installed by the proper authorities, right?
So just look at these 3 measurements, taken by JA. On-axis, off-axis, and in-room, they tell it all. We have a rare opportunity to see these two different speakers in the same environment, measured similarly.
Look at how much smoother the S5 off-axis response is, that results in a much better in-room response (different scale on the off-axis, but you can see the Alexia wreckage at 30°). No professional installation will change the Alexia poor off-axis performance, and that will make any room interaction impossible to predict or tame (Ignore the blue line on the S5 in-room, that is a different speaker).

S5 MK2:

Alexia:

LVB , Do you know If JA used the same smoothing and sampling rate on both speakers , the Magico's do measure well , also i think i now know why Alon wont provide multiple binding post ..

BTW , You would have to measure both speakers accordingly to really compare graphs, but historically Magico's do measure better , but hey , Measurements tells us nothing , right..? You still have to buy , trial and error , move this , amp that , because sometimes there's no Bass ...

[LVB]

LVB , Do you know If JA used the same smoothing and sampling rate on both speakers , the Magico's do measure well , also i think i now know why Alon wont provide multiple binding post ..

BTW , You would have to measure both speakers accordingly to really compare graphs, but historically Magico's do measure better , but hey , Measurements tells us nothing , right..? You still have to buy , trial and error , move this , amp that , because sometimes there's no Bass ...

It sure looks like the same smoothing on both speakers (I believe he is using an analog rig to measure so sampling rate is not relevant). You don't need to compare the two to see which is better engineered. You can buy whatever you like, that is a whole different story, but some speakers are (much) better engineered then others.

[a.wayne]

Well Yeah the sample rate is necessary and the magico is full gated down to 300 hz with a lot of smoothing, he then measures the woofers in their pressure zones ( dust cap ) cut and splice. The WA are measured gated , individually , cut and spliced , he measures woofers and the ports the same and here in is the likkle devil in the details and where most give him grief, it creates the unnecessary trough where the port transition to the woofer most likely due to phase and scaling.

Now,

By providing one set of binding post , Alon is forcing those who measure to measure his tweeter/mid/mid bass as a whole down to their gating limit, no splicing , looks real good that way. Now if JA were to drag these two outside and do GP measurements or open field measurements we would get a better picture of what each speakers looks like without the silly gating and splicing.


I would also like to see Phase on those FR graphs and i notice you did not include the step response..

But yeah it's all good ...


Regards ...

[Melbguy1]

You are joking right ?

The M3s are better than the S5s, the same way Porsche 911 Turbo S is better than BMW 5 series.

I would hope so for double the price. But even then it is room-dependent as Barry is finding out.

[KeithR]

It would be nice if the y-axis was the same on both in-room FR graphs...

[a.wayne]

It would be nice if the y-axis was the same on both in-room FR graphs...

Eagle Eye .... I was saving that .........

[LVB]

Well Yeah the sample rate is necessary and the magico is full gated down to 300 hz with a lot of smoothing, he then measures the woofers in their pressure zones ( dust cap ) cut and splice. The WA are measured gated , individually , cut and spliced , he measures woofers and the ports the same and here in is the likkle devil in the details and where most give him grief, it creates the unnecessary trough where the port transition to the woofer most likely due to phase and scaling.

Now,

By providing one set of binding post , Alon is forcing those who measure to measure his tweeter/mid/mid bass as a whole down to their gating limit, no splicing , looks real good that way. Now if JA were to drag these two outside and do GP measurements or open field measurements we would get a better picture of what each speakers looks like without the silly gating and splicing.


I would also like to see Phase on those FR graphs and i notice you did not include the step response..

But yeah it's all good ...


Regards ...

It's actually not good. What's all that gibberish has to do with off-axis and room response (I get it you know how to measure loudspeakers, bravo). There are so many mistakes in what you just wrote that I will just opt out on this one... In the mean time I would recommend reading JA article on how he measures loudspeakers.

[kzhtoo]

There's nothing like Wilson and Magico going at it.

[Joe P]

There's nothing like Wilson and Magico going at it.

When I started this thread, I had no intention of starting a Wilson vs Magico debate, but
Barry posted that he was having trouble getting his new M3s to work as well in his room as the WA Alexias they replaced.....and we were off to the races.

As I've posted, I don't own either brand.

Hopefully, the discussion has helped Barry.

[Jack]

Well regardless of all the chest pumping that has gone on the last couple of days Barry is the one on the hook for over $70k for a speaker that he believes doesn't work in his room. How much of that issue is the result of the room or the speaker design differences can be argued forever but it doesn't help Barry. If Barry didn't communicate the possible difficulties of his room or the dealer didn't take them into account at this point is mute. The question is how can Barry and the dealer work the problem out so neither one of them gets stuck. If the dealer has a waiting list for the M3 then the problem is easily resolved. If not then it becomes more difficult. I don't think any dealer would or should have to eat a $70,000 speaker return because it didn't work out unless that was part of the original agreement for purchase. So instead of the "fans" arguing constantly about whose is better how about we help Barry try to resolve his issue without spending another $50,000 or more on your preferred amps and cables. Novel ideal I know.

[Melbguy1]

Well regardless of all the chest pumping that has gone on the last couple of days Barry is the one on the hook for over $70k for a speaker that he believes doesn't work in his room. How much of that issue is the result of the room or the speaker design differences can be argued forever but it doesn't help Barry. If Barry didn't communicate the possible difficulties of his room or the dealer didn't take them into account at this point is mute. The question is how can Barry and the dealer work the problem out so neither one of them gets stuck. If the dealer has a waiting list for the M3 then the problem is easily resolved. If not then it becomes more difficult. I don't think any dealer would or should have to eat a $70,000 speaker return because it didn't work out unless that was part of the original agreement for purchase. So instead of the "fans" arguing constantly about whose is better how about we help Barry try to resolve his issue without spending another $50,000 or more on your preferred amps and cables. Novel ideal I know.

That is an overly simplistic and wildly generalized commentary which only diminishes the many worthwhile contributions to this thread, some of which took hours of research and fact-checking which you seem apparently oblivious to. Summarizing the efforts of senior members who have given many hours of their time to this thread alone instead of their loved ones as "chest pumping" by fan boi's is disrespecful. I for one have a terminally ill mother and don't appreciate my time and effort being dismissed as "chest pumping" and being "unhelpful" which ever way you want to spin it.

[Jack]

You're free to take it however you choose and as the opinion of another senior member who thinks that the constant justification of personal purchase choices in threads gets old. And as usual you and the ones with a personal stake only read the parts of a post that gives "fuel" to your next post.

[LVB]

That is an overly simplistic and wildly generalized commentary which only diminishes the many worthwhile contributions to this thread, some of which took hours of research and fact-checking which you seem apparently oblivious to. Summarizing the efforts of senior members who have given many hours of their time to this thread alone instead of their loved ones as "chest pumping" by fan boi's is disrespecful. I for one have a terminally ill mother and don't appreciate my time and effort being dismissed as "chest pumping" and being "unhelpful" which ever way you want to spin it.

+1

[Jack]

And another one checks in. Even though he said he was walking away.

[Kippyy]

I appreciate the thoughts and advice. I'm only slightly disappointed so far, but in the big scheme of life,this is a fixable problem. If the M3 doesn't work out in time,Im confident I can find an equitable solution with my dealer. FYI, someone from Wilson informed me that the Alexia may get an upgrade later this year. Perhaps another reason to hear the S7 if necessary.
A dear friend of mine lost a family member tonight which kind of puts high end audio in its proper perspective.
barry

[Melbguy1]

I appreciate the thoughts and advice. I'm only slightly disappointed so far, but in the big scheme of life,this is a fixable problem. If the M3 doesn't work out in time,Im confident I can find an equitable solution with my dealer. FYI, someone from Wilson informed me that the Alexia may get an upgrade later this year. Perhaps another reason to hear the S7 if necessary.
A dear friend of mine lost a family member tonight which kind of puts high end audio in its proper perspective.
barry

I agree, your M3's will need atleast 400hrs to be mostly played in. During that process the bass should open up and become more solid. At that point you and your Dealer can dial in a final speaker position which should further improve the bottom end.

If in the end you're still unhappy with the M3's in your medium-large size room, yes I'd agree the S7's would be the closest Magico speaker within your budget in size and bass output to the Alexia's. If you go down that road, my only suggestion would be to get the optional M Pods which are awesome as I'm sure you're already aware.

With the above said, I'm sorry to hear your sad news. I'm dealing with similar issues close to home, and it is difficult and humbling. Take care bro.

[a.wayne]

It's actually not good. What's all that gibberish has to do with off-axis and room response (I get it you know how to measure loudspeakers, bravo). There are so many mistakes in what you just wrote that I will just opt out on this one... In the mean time I would recommend reading JA article on how he measures loudspeakers.

Ok , so i get it , you dont understand what was written nor do you see the Irony in your responses...



Please take a look at the -6 db points on Both , now do you see Kippyy's issue , i will give you a hint it's not the off axis response, but i do understand your position , some of us are trying to help Kippyy and you Magico ..

BTW no Dog in this fight , they are all laterals IMO, i dont get why the obligatory disrespect is necessary, if a forum member wants to get A Kulamazoo 1000 because his Magico or WA is not working , the focus should be to help with his Kulamazoo , well it is for me , this constant carping about bad bass or his wanting of more boomy bass is beyond the pale, it's petty, disrespectful and condescending ....

Regards

[a.wayne]

I appreciate the thoughts and advice. I'm only slightly disappointed so far, but in the big scheme of life,this is a fixable problem. If the M3 doesn't work out in time,Im confident I can find an equitable solution with my dealer. FYI, someone from Wilson informed me that the Alexia may get an upgrade later this year. Perhaps another reason to hear the S7 if necessary.
A dear friend of mine lost a family member tonight which kind of puts high end audio in its proper perspective.
barry

My Condolences to both you and your friends family Kippyy...

[Dth31]

Sorry to be late to this thread, but I will share my experience with M3s and VAC 200iQ.

After several hundred hours, I was NOT happy with the sound. Sounded brighter and more "top down" than my Q3s. I was ready to look for another amp, probably SS, to get more bass and mid bass.

At the time I was using Synergistic Galileo speaker cables and Synergistic Element CTS RCA interconnects. My dealer had some used Galileo balanced interconnects and I wanted to try Galileo interconnects. I was gobsmacked. The bass, mid bass and warmth were back and the sound was VERY balanced and natural. This was the M3 sound I had read about and was looking for!

Was it the cable change? More break in? Maybe. All I can say is that the change was immediate and likely due to the cables. Not saying in your system the cabling will transform the sound, but it did seem to in mine (thankfully).

[Melbguy1]

DT, that is one sweet system you have there, congrats . Your experience gives credence to my belief that "cables matter" and can have a significant influence on the sound. Thanks for sharing!

[Mike]

Dth31 - glad that cables made such a big difference. I'm not surprised because Magico's are so revealing and transparent.

Can you describe the sound of your Ortofon MC Anna? I'm contemplating getting one.


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[Dth31]

DT, that is one sweet system you have there, congrats . Your experience gives credence to my belief that "cables matter" and can have a significant influence on the sound. Thanks for sharing!

The other thing I would add is that my expectation of the Galileo interconnects was that the background would be blacker, the soundstage larger, and the detail and layering better. I got that. I did NOT expect to hear any change in the overall tonal balance--so I do not believe there was expectation bias.

[LVB]

Ok , so i get it , you dont understand what was written nor do you see the Irony in your responses...



.... i dont get why the obligatory disrespect is necessary.

Regards

Read your posts and tell us, both about the irony and the disrespect

There are many ways of being disrespectful, constantly bombarding the threads with “smart” one liners dismissing any technical comments made by others, and in most cases without much cause, is one of them (my post, BTW, was a reply to jap comments about speakers setup, not about helping anyone, I already said earlier that I believe kippyy bought the wrong speakers).

[bonzo]

The other thing I would add is that my expectation of the Galileo interconnects was that the background would be blacker, the soundstage larger, and the detail and layering better. I got that. I did NOT expect to hear any change in the overall tonal balance--so I do not believe there was expectation bias.

Hi, what did you compare your VaC master to, if I may ask? Thanks

[a.wayne]

Read your posts and tell us, both about the irony and the disrespect

There are many ways of being disrespectful, constantly bombarding the threads with “smart” one liners dismissing any technical comments made by others, and in most cases without much cause, is one of them (my post, BTW, was a reply to jap comments about speakers setup, not about helping anyone, I already said earlier that I believe kippyy bought the wrong speakers).

Err , nope that was you being dismissive, you were the one armed with manipulated data to prove your speaker superior to another who has already voiced his preference with sincere honesty .

[LVB]

Err , nope that was you being dismissive, you were the one armed with manipulated data to prove your speaker superior to another who has already voiced his preference with sincere honesty .

So now JA data is also manipulated, and therefore dismissive? Great, I guess I am in good company.

[Dth31]

Hi, what did you compare your VaC master to, if I may ask? Thanks

One of the reasons I don't post much is that I'm not much of a comparor or tweaker. I much prefer to just listen to music!

So I only compared the Master to my previous preamp, which was a VAC Sig MkII, IIRC. I really liked my previous VAC preamp, and thought the Master might sound a little better but never suspected what a HUGE difference there would be. I absolutely LOVED what I was hearing with the Master, and have enjoyed my other VAC components immensely, so I bought it.

As you might guess, one of the things I am experiencing for the first time is how once the system reaches a certain level, E-V-E-R-Y little thing makes a very audible difference. Some may look at that as an apportunity, but I'm struggling with the switching in and out and comparing part of this hobby. Makes my musical enjoyment life better, and harder, at the same time.

[a.wayne]

So now JA data is also manipulated, and therefore dismissive? Great, I guess I am in good company.

I'm not going to get into your romper room Banter , so if you dont have anything adult to say, i will pass on the invitation..





Regards

[Dth31]

Can you describe the sound of your Ortofon MC Anna? I'm contemplating getting one.


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Hi Mike. You might want to look at my reply to Bonzo about what other preamps I compared the VAC Master to. Applies to your question too.

Over the years I have gone from 90% vinyl/10% digital to about 50/50 each to about 10% vinyl/90% digital. Once I got the TotalDac in my previous system (Magico Q3s, VAC Phi200s and VAC pre), digital sounded so good (which to me meant that it had the best qualities of both analog and digital) that when it was time to replace my van den Hul Frog, my standard of comparison became my digital system.

The Anna has all of the qualities of (what I consider to be) very good analog and digital with only a very little extra "analog"-ness to it. But here is where comparisons become important and I can't help too much, at least when it comes to other cartridges.

in my current system, the sound of the Anna is markedly affected by the 12AX7s in the Master phono section. (Same theme: seemingly small changes make big audible changes.) Depending upon what tubes I use in the phonostage, the Anna can sound very different. It's pretty easy to go from too analytical (all Telefunkens) to too warm (all NOS Mullards). I'm currently using a mixture of NOS and new production Mullards. With that combination, the Anna sounds very close to my digital system, perhaps with just a touch more warmth and liquidity-although not much. Whereas before I listened to music I had on vinyl whenever possible (because my ears were very sensitive to "digititis"), now I tend to pick performances I like and don't obsess whether it is vinyl or digital.

May sound like faint praise for the Anna, but considering how much I enjoy my TotalDac, it's actually high praise!

[LVB]

I'm not going to get into your romper room Banter , so if you dont have anything adult to say, i will pass on the invitation..



Regards

Thank you, please adopt this approach to all my posts.

[Kuoppis]

The Anna has all of the qualities of (what I consider to be) very good analog and digital with only a very little extra "analog"-ness to it.

This is by no means any sort of criticism, but this is what I am trying to avoid in my analogue system, I want them to sound different. And luckily they do .

But I am also intrigued by the Anna, along with a couple other carts (Lyra Etna, Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua).


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[bonzo]

This is by no means any sort of criticism, but this is what I am trying to avoid in my analogue system, I want them to sound different. And luckily they do .

But I am also intrigued by the Anna, along with a couple other carts (Lyra Etna, Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua).


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+1. If they sound the same, I would change something in the analog - maybe an external phono, different TT, not sure.

[Dth31]

This is by no means any sort of criticism, but this is what I am trying to avoid in my analogue system, I want them to sound different. And luckily they do .


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I totally understand that view!

[Mike]

This is by no means any sort of criticism, but this is what I am trying to avoid in my analogue system, I want them to sound different. And luckily they do .

But I am also intrigued by the Anna, along with a couple other carts (Lyra Etna, Dynavector Te Kaitora Rua).


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I just ordered this cart this morning:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/...ond-cantilever

The regular Transfiguration is such a home run. It competes with carts in the $10k range IMO, but does require a long break in.


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[Kuoppis]

I totally understand that view!

Ditto, you have found what you like and that's what you put in place in either system. Nothing wrong with that.


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[Kuoppis]

I just ordered this cart this morning:

http://www.analogplanet.com/content/...ond-cantilever

The regular Transfiguration is such a home run. It competes with carts in the $10k range IMO, but does require a long break in.


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Congrats Mike, yet another component solidly in the 'unobtainium' category, as Fremer puts it.


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[KeithR]

Cool! I heard the Proteus (orig version) vs Lyra Etna SL and didn't think it was much contest on a Brinkmann Balance despite the huge price difference.

[Mike]

Cool! I heard the Proteus (orig version) vs Lyra Etna SL and didn't think it was much contest on a Brinkmann Balance despite the huge price difference.

You preferred the Lyra?

[KeithR]

Proteus all day.

[Melbguy1]

I'm not going to get into your romper room Banter , so if you dont have anything adult to say, i will pass on the invitation..

Regards

Romper Stomper.

[altanpsx]

Orpheus, Proteus they are quite gems..Even orpheus still sound very good. Low to mid mass tonearms are killer match for those tonearm. I think proteus sound very good on brinkmann tonearm. Lyra etna needs a mid to high mass tonearm. Brinkmann's not the best match. But do not misunderstand, i prefer proteus too. At last tonearm cable is very very important for these two cartridges. Fast cable would reveal everything they got, like odin tonearm cable..

Enjoy the ride Mike...

[KeithR]

Orpheus, Proteus they are quite gems..Even orpheus still sound very good. Low to mid mass tonearms are killer match for those tonearm. I think proteus sound very good on brinkmann tonearm. Lyra etna needs a mid to high mass tonearm. Brinkmann's not the best match. But do not misunderstand, i prefer proteus too. At last tonearm cable is very very important for these two cartridges. Fast cable would reveal everything they got, like odin tonearm cable..

Enjoy the ride Mike...

You might be right and I'm no expert on compliance - I heard both carts on Kuzma 4 Points with the Balance. Very nice having 2 to make the comparison

[Wardl]

Hi - joined forum when I saw this thread. I just bought the M3s. Driving with Boulder 2060. Bass is very light out of the box. I have 12' x 21' room. Have had the S3 in this room and a number of other speakers. Not up to even S3 bass yet. Clearly the M3s need break in time and, given the stated measurements, I expect the change in bass performance to be fairly drastic over break in period. Ward

[altanpsx]

You might be right and I'm no expert on compliance - I heard both carts on Kuzma 4 Points with the Balance. Very nice having 2 to make the comparison

I am not an expert. All my findings are my experience with different cartridges with different tonearms. Many times, complience calculation did not provide the best match, at least in my trials. 2+2= ? in this hobby Also comparing two different things in an analog setup is not a perfect thing. Everything, i mean every varibale could be same, but two cartridge is never the same, and impossible to mount them exactly the same. Each and every cartridge has its own merits. I believe having two tone arms and having 4 cartridges mean, having 8 system at the same time. Important thing is, each cartridge and tonearm should be player in the same league. Otherwise you only listened the best one. For an example if you have a Lyra Atlas, do not buy Lyra Etna, if you have zyx universe do not buy lyra etna, have atlas and premium. Two of these cartridge may fight each other, none wins. Balance is very important for mutliple tonearm combos....

[bonzo]

Sorry I don't understand. If you have Zyx universe, the premium will be better.

Why not have the Etna, but have the atlas?