Entreq Ground Boxes & Cables

[Jim Smith]

Jim,

i wasn't aware that the battery PSU could be unplugged for listening pleasure. Do you do this at home too, or just at shows? Big/small difference IYO?

Thanks!

Steve

I always do it.

[Jim Smith]

Jim,

The Entreq grounding boxes have nothing to do with "safety AC grounding," they connect to "signal ground."

As I'm sure you know, in some components signal ground is connected to safety AC grounding, and is easy to determine with a multi-meter.

Thanks! Frankly, I was unaware of how they worked so I probably should have kept quiet.

[Pallen]

Another endorsement of Entreq grounding boxes. My tube power amp and tube preamp are connected to a Poseiden via Apollo cables. What I have heard in my system is a larger & fuller soundstage, more tonal colour and a more engaging sound - with no loss of dynamics. I consider the money well spent.

[Mike]

Another endorsement of Entreq grounding boxes. My tube power amp and tube preamp are connected to a Poseiden via Apollo cables. What I have heard in my system is a larger & fuller soundstage, more tonal colour and a more engaging sound - with no loss of dynamics. I consider the money well spent.

Agreed. I haven't taken mine out of the system.

[alto]

Reading through this thread, there seems to be confusion as to using Entreq with Vitus, as far as I know Vitus owners are using Entreq without problems? Can somebody clear this up.

My own experience with using Entreq on a one day trial, was very positive. We started at the digital end with a Olympus Maximus connected to the fidata server and then went through upgrading the cables. Every stage was a positive. Moving to the Tallus 2 was slightly better I think, but I need to double check this? We then introduced the Poseidon, connecting the Mola Mola pre/dac to the centre post and the negative amp terminals separately to the two outer terminals. All the positive aspects of a clean back ground, more space around the instruments, more natural top end, better bass definition, were intensified with this set up. Highly recommended.

PS Should add that the Everest’s had a positive result as well.

[Jazzhead]

Hi , I use the Poseidon with my Vitus amp , have hid no problem . Only positives.

[Speedskater]

.......................................
We then introduced the Poseidon, connecting the Mola Mola pre/dac to the centre post and the negative amp terminals separately to the two outer terminals......................................... ........

Is there any continuity between the three terminals?

[nonesup]

Is there any continuity between the three terminals?

No in the Poseidon they are totally independent.

[Speedskater]

If the three terminals are all independent, then it will be safe. Just like connecting 3 independent insulated wires. Although some audiophiles call that 'Groundside Electronics'. All a wire connected at only one end can do is act as an antenna.

[nonesup]

What they tell you from Vitus, is exactly like what the Constellation technical service told me: If I plugged the negative terminals of my amplifier into two Silver Minimus boxes, the amplifier, "kaputt".
Frankly I did not understand it, but I still did not dare. Until a guy from WBF sent a picture of his stereo Centaur, with the terminals connected to two Silver Minimus boxes, then I decided to do it. And ... nothing happened. Well, something happened, my system sounded better. Many manufacturers hear the word Earth, and they no longer want to hear anything more than you explain, say NO.
On the other hand I have to say that in my experience with Entreq boxes, the connection of these to free signal outputs (RCA, XLR, USB, RJ45), has always improved the sound. However, this has not been the case when I have connected the chassis ground terminals (on those devices that have them).

[Mike]

What they tell you from Vitus, is exactly like what the Constellation technical service told me: If I plugged the negative terminals of my amplifier into two Silver Minimus boxes, the amplifier, "kaputt".
Frankly I did not understand it, but I still did not dare. Until a guy from WBF sent a picture of his stereo Centaur, with the terminals connected to two Silver Minimus boxes, then I decided to do it. And ... nothing happened. Well, something happened, my system sounded better. Many manufacturers hear the word Earth, and they no longer want to hear anything more than you explain, say NO.
On the other hand I have to say that in my experience with Entreq boxes, the connection of these to free signal outputs (RCA, XLR, USB, RJ45), has always improved the sound. However, this has not been the case when I have connected the chassis ground terminals (on those devices that have them).

Yup. I heard the same BS too when I wanted to try one. Like you, just got better sound.


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[mep]

I wonder how many people have blown up their gear because they grounded things that should have never been grounded? We probably don't hear those stories just like gamblers only tell you when they win.

[KeithR]

I wonder how many people have blown up their gear because they grounded things that should have never been grounded? We probably don't hear those stories just like gamblers only tell you when they win.

That plus how inserting an antenna in your system decreases emi

[mauidan]

That plus how inserting an antenna in your system decreases emi

Lots of unshielded antennas here:

[Phishphan]

Anyone opened up one of these boxes to see what is inside? Seems like hoo-do-voodoo


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[mauidan]

Anyone opened up one of these boxes to see what is inside? Seems like hoo-do-voodoo


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[Mike Lavigne]

you can kill or maim yourself with a hammer. but you'd have to be pretty stupid. it's a tool that requires proper use....and basic common sense.

Entreq gear is not a problem to use, it does require common sense....and it is not just casually plug and play. but used properly in an appropriately sorted out system, it does improve performance.....in my personal experience. YMMV.

I use my Entreq Poseidon and -3- Atlantic Minimus boxes (as boosters) to ground the negative terminals of my dart mono blocks, plus ground my bass tower amps. makes a significant contribution to performance.

as I recently got a Tripoint Elite for my sources, and moved my Tripoint Troy Sig to chassis ground my dart mono's + ground my passive main speaker towers, i'll be moving my Entreq Silver Tellus across the room over to my Studer RTR decks.....as the Silver Tellus is redundant on my other sources now with the Tripoint Elite in that spot.

[nonesup]

[QUOTE = mauidan; 218792]
[/ QUOTE]

Well, there seems to be exactly what Entreq says there is; a mixture of minerals whose formula obviously do not publish.

[Phishphan]

A plywood box filled with dirt. Magic!!


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[Mike Lavigne]

A plywood box filled with dirt. Magic!!


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quite a helpful observation.

you've tried the Entreq in your system? right?

[Speedskater]

I wonder how many people have blown up their gear because they grounded things that should have never been grounded? We probably don't hear those stories just like gamblers only tell you when they win.

Well the best simple definition of 'ground' is:
That 'ground' acts as a common reference point.

From the descriptions of these boxes that I have read, they don't act as a common reference point.

In fact the boxes don't meet any definition of 'ground'.

So it's hard to image a way for them to blow anything up.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
In the cases where they are connected to RCA chassis jacks that have plastic insulator rings, the box & wire can act as an interference antenna.

[mep]

Well the best simple definition of 'ground' is:
That 'ground' acts as a common reference point.

From the descriptions of these boxes that I have read, they don't act as a common reference point.

In fact the boxes don't meet any definition of 'ground'.

So it's hard to image a way for them to blow anything up.

* * * * * * * * * * * * *
In the cases where they are connected to RCA chassis jacks that have plastic insulator rings, the box & wire can act as an interference antenna.

I wasn't strictly speaking about the Entreq boxes, but more to the point that we have some people who are bereft of electrical knowledge who now think everything should be grounded. And if the Entreq boxes aren't really grounded to ground, what are they doing? Are we floating ground now?

[Speedskater]

And if the Entreq boxes aren't really grounded to ground, what are they doing?

From an electrical engineering perspective, they arn't doing anything.

Are we floating ground now?

What does this mean?

Yes, we can float an audio circuit common from an AC power circuit Safety Ground.
But the basic definitions for ground are:
a] Common reference point.
b] Path to such a point.

Most of the boxes don't meet these definitions, but I recall seeing one box that did. (it functioned as a terminal strip for several ground wires)

[audio.bill]

Well the best simple definition of 'ground' is:
That 'ground' acts as a common reference point.

From the descriptions of these boxes that I have read, they don't act as a common reference point.

In fact the boxes don't meet any definition of 'ground'.

So it's hard to image a way for them to blow anything up.

My understanding about the possibility of some connected amplifiers failing is if the ground box connection points are truly common and are wired to the negative output terminals of a stereo amplifier which are not true circuit grounds could result in blown outputs.

[mep]

From an electrical engineering perspective, they arn't doing anything.


What does this mean?

Yes, we can float an audio circuit common from an AC power circuit Safety Ground.
But the basic definitions for ground are:
a] Common reference point.
b] Path to such a point.

Most of the boxes don't meet these definitions, but I recall seeing one box that did. (it functioned as a terminal strip for several ground wires)

I don't know if we are arguing semantics now. Voltage is referenced to ground and you either have a true ground or you don't. So I don't understand how people are connecting a ground wire to a device that is not truly grounded and somehow they think they have now established a "better" ground.

[Speedskater]

My understanding about the possibility of some connected amplifiers failing is if the ground box connection points are truly common and are wired to the negative output terminals of a stereo amplifier which are not true circuit grounds could result in blown outputs.

I don't know, but I don't believe the for the most part the terminals are commoned together. That is they don't have continuity between the terminals.

[Speedskater]

I don't know if we are arguing semantics now. Voltage is referenced to ground and you either have a true ground or you don't. So I don't understand how people are connecting a ground wire to a device that is not truly grounded and somehow they think they have now established a "better" ground.

Not semantics, voltage is referenced between two points, one of those points may also be 'ground'.

What is a 'true ground' and what is it's function?

[mauidan]

My understanding about the possibility of some connected amplifiers failing is if the ground box connection points are truly common and are wired to the negative output terminals of a stereo amplifier which are not true circuit grounds could result in blown outputs.

There is a warning on the Stillpoints website:

"You must use one Ground box and one ground cable per channel! Never use a single ground box to connect both channels. You will likely damage your amplifier."

You can use one Poseidon which has three independent ground terminals.

[mep]

Not semantics, voltage is referenced between two points, one of those points may also be 'ground'.

What is a 'true ground' and what is it's function?

Seriously? I'm not playing.

[UltraFast69]

Nordosts’ brand Q Kore is similar and provided an amazing change in sound for me. The unit provides two paths; distribution and components. I have only installed this on the component side, but will do the distribution side this upcoming weekend.

I can only assume Entreq is similar in nature, and if it does close to what Nordost accomplished, it was worth the investment. Louder with a clear soundstage. I am really focused on power products to the various gear and room treatments as I have heard the difference; now my newest part of the hobby.

[Jim Smith]

Nordosts’ brand Q Kore is similar and provided an amazing change in sound for me. The unit provides two paths; distribution and components. I have only installed this on the component side, but will do the distribution side this upcoming weekend.

I can only assume Entreq is similar in nature, and if it does close to what Nordost accomplished, it was worth the investment. Louder with a clear soundstage. I am really focused on power products to the various gear and room treatments as I have heard the difference; now my newest part of the hobby.

These might be worthwhile, after your system is working with the room, rather than against it - in other words, when you have optimized the acoustic wave-launch into the room and you are receiving it optimally at your seat. If not, then some part of your investment has been wasted, IMO.


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[UltraFast69]

These might be worthwhile, after your system is working with the room, rather than against it - in other words, when you have optimized the acoustic wave-launch into the room and you are receiving it optimally at your seat. If not, then some part of your investment has been wasted, IMO.


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That to me applies to most aspects of building a system, for best results I have learned that having the room treated for acoustics is key and actually much cheaper then buying gear. However, tradeoffs can enter into the equation; aesthetics, “must have nows”, education/experience and similar lead back to a reduction of optimization, but in the end, it’s all about you and what makes you happy in this CRAZY hobby.

[mauidan]

These might be worthwhile, after your system is working with the room, rather than against it - in other words, when you have optimized the acoustic wave-launch into the room and you are receiving it optimally at your seat. If not, then some part of your investment has been wasted, IMO.


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Have you tried any of the Entreq products in your system, if not how can you make this statement?

[Jim Smith]

Have you tried any of the Entreq products in your system, if not how can you make this statement?

I said they might be helpful, but they cannot provide even 10% of the impact of getting the acoustic wave-launch optimized.

If you’ve not experienced the power of unlocking your music’s emotional engagement, I can understand your skepticism.

Rather than engage in the typical forum argument, you can have the last word.


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[Jim Smith]

That to me applies to most aspects of building a system, for best results I have learned that having the room treated for acoustics is key and actually much cheaper then buying gear. However, tradeoffs can enter into the equation; aesthetics, “must have nows”, education/experience and similar lead back to a reduction of optimization, but in the end, it’s all about you and what makes you happy in this CRAZY hobby.

I certainly agree that having the room treated for acoustics is helpful, especially when the proper location for seating position (always the first step) has been accomplished, and you are working to locate the optimum speaker location to create the best acoustic wave-launch.

Room treatments alone? Not so much...

IMO/IME, of course.


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[mauidan]

I said they might be helpful, but they cannot provide even 10% of the impact of getting the acoustic wave-launch optimized.

If you’ve not experienced the power of unlocking your music’s emotional engagement, I can understand your skepticism.

Rather than engage in the typical forum argument, you can have the last word.


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This isn't a question of having the last word.

You haven't heard the product.

I'm not worried if my system has had its "acoustic wave-launch optimized."

IMO, anyone that's familiar with the sound of their system should be able to tell if this product makes an improvement.

[Mike Lavigne]

I said they might be helpful, but they cannot provide even 10% of the impact of getting the acoustic wave-launch optimized.

If you’ve not experienced the power of unlocking your music’s emotional engagement, I can understand your skepticism.

+1.

these type products are not universally plug and play. it's always easy to be negative on things you don't understand.

I use both Entreq and Tripoint grounding products in my system. and it was not until I completed my room tuning that these products really made significant differences in performance. these products are not a band aid on room issues, they are enhancements and accents in a mature finely tuned system. they lower noise floors, enhance note development, add bass articulation, and increase degrees of musical cohesion.

if you feel you have your system sounding 'right'; then these grounding products can take you further.

[mauidan]

Mr.Smith and Mike,

If I evaluated this product in a high-end headphone system, what does the "impact of getting the acoustic wave-launch optimized/room tuning," have to do with anything?

[Mike Lavigne]

Mr.Smith and Mike,

If I evaluated this product in a high-end headphone system, what does the "impact of getting the acoustic wave-launch optimized/room tuning," have to do with anything?

having owned a high end headphone system a few years ago (the BHSE and Stax 009's along with some other stuff) no doubt grounding products improving source and amplifier performance would matter; but it would be a complete guess as to how much. obviously the whole 'wave launch' thing is solved with headphones up front.

room<-> system synergy problems and acoustic issues cloud the musical nuance benefits of grounding products, and headphones should eliminate that clouding, but without a soundstage to take advantage of, it's unknown whether the full benefit of improved grounding would be heard.

so my take would be of a somewhat diminished benefit with headphones, but any possibility is possible. you might hear more benefit depending on exactly what overall room-amp-speaker system you compared it to.

[mep]

having owned a high end headphone system a few years ago (the BHSE and Stax 009's along with some other stuff) no doubt grounding products improving source and amplifier performance would matter; but it would be a complete guess as to how much. obviously the whole 'wave launch' thing is solved with headphones up front.

room<-> system synergy problems and acoustic issues cloud the musical nuance benefits of grounding products, and headphones should eliminate that clouding, but without a soundstage to take advantage of, it's unknown whether the full benefit of improved grounding would be heard.

so my take would be of a somewhat diminished benefit with headphones, but any possibility is possible. you might hear more benefit depending on exactly what overall room-amp-speaker system you compared it to.

I think Dan's response was a bit tongue in cheek. Why are we talking about "acoustic wave-launch" in a thread about Entreq Ground Boxes & Cables? They either make your system "better" or they don't and reducing or eliminating the effects of a "bad" ground scheme is independent of what Jim's business model is all about.

[mep]

+1.

these type products are not universally plug and play. it's always easy to be negative on things you don't understand.

I use both Entreq and Tripoint grounding products in my system. and it was not until I completed my room tuning that these products really made significant differences in performance. these products are not a band aid on room issues, they are enhancements and accents in a mature finely tuned system. they lower noise floors, enhance note development, add bass articulation, and increase degrees of musical cohesion.

if you feel you have your system sounding 'right'; then these grounding products can take you further.

It's also quite easy to be positive about things you don't understand-especially when other people in the herd tell you that you should be positive.

[Mike Lavigne]

I think Dan's response was a bit tongue in cheek. Why are we talking about "acoustic wave-launch" in a thread about Entreq Ground Boxes & Cables? They either make your system "better" or they don't and reducing or eliminating the effects of a "bad" ground scheme is independent of what Jim's business model is all about.

I did not read Dan's comment that way. it seemed he was wondering whether Entreq grounding products related to headphone listening, since obviously Jim's 'wave launch' comment was not relevant to headphones. and as I had had considerable experience with higher end headphones and grounding I felt I had a contribution to make.

these grounding products are not about fixing bad ground schemes. they are about enhancing the degree of grounding's benefit to circuits. you take a circuit ground and provide it a more effective ground. it's about lowering EMI/RF in degrees, and calming power supplies.

a mature system working well in a room can be tweaked in various ways, whether it's better resonance control, or better power grid tweaks, or grounding enhancements. this is not to say any of these issues show that something is broken to begin with, only that there is more progress than can be made in certain areas......if your mind is open to these possibilities and you are in the mood to try them. and if you would rather leave well enough alone, then no worries.

and Jim's comments, which I completely agree with, is that tweaking the signal path of a system which has significant room-speaker set-up and acoustic issues is a bit chasing your tail as you don't know what is causing what. a certain maturity needs to be achieved in a system for deeper tweaking type benefits to be revealed. the lower the noise and higher the resolution of a system, the more ROI one gets from any tweaking. sure; Jim's business is the whole system set-up stuff, so he does know about the order of approach and priority pretty good. he was just trying to be helpful.

[Mike Lavigne]

It's also quite easy to be positive about things you don't understand-especially when other people in the herd tell you that you should be positive.

Mark, have a nice day.

[mep]

Mark, have a nice day.

Thanks Mike! You too!

[audio.bill]

That type of exchange is what makes AS "The friendliest audio forum"!

[mauidan]

I think Dan's response was a bit tongue in cheek. Why are we talking about "acoustic wave-launch" in a thread about Entreq Ground Boxes & Cables? They either make your system "better" or they don't and reducing or eliminating the effects of a "bad" ground scheme is independent of what Jim's business model is all about.

Mark,

Here's an old thread with some good info on this subject:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussio...ghlight=Entreq

Pay close attention to atmasphere (Ralph)'s posts.

[mep]

Mark,

Here's an old thread with some good info on this subject:

https://forum.audiogon.com/discussio...ghlight=Entreq

Pay close attention to atmasphere (Ralph)'s posts.

Dan-I tried to slog through it all and I think I read everything that Ralph posted. I understand Ralph's position as it's grounded (pun intended) in science. I really need to bow out of this thread because I don't own these products and nor have I heard them in my system.