experience with Pass Labs amps?

[Old Bob]

good morning! I still consider myself a beginner. I LOVE my Triode tube amp, will upgrade speakers when I can.

I read just a LITTLE bit about Nelson Pass. he seems really quite bright! I am really curious about his power amps.

do any of you have direct experience with pass labs or first watt power amps? comments on class A, etc?
say you get a 25 watt first watt amp, how efficient would your speakers need to be?

my room is 13 by 13 feet, 10 foot ceiling. do not need super super loud classical music!

do you feel their pretty high prices are justified?

would like any advice!

I KNOW I am an amateur. THANKS!
bob

[Mikado463]

Old Bob, Old Dave here.........my dealings with Nelson Pass go back to his Threshold days of the eighties. Yes, I am a fan of his products, along with quite a few others.

Given you smallish room and acoustically unfriendly dimensions (square is never good) I'd think a lower powered Class A/B (generates less heat) would be ideal.

Oh, as for the high prices......

1) nobody in their right mind pays retail

2) IMO I don't consider them to be high for what you get in return .......

[Kuoppis]

Bought a Pass INT-60 earlier this year and have really enjoyed it. Can only recommend Pass Labs.

It comes with very positive reviews as well, widely considered one of the very best integrated amps currently. If 60 wpc suffices for your purposes.


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[Mike]

Never heard of them.

Pass is terrific stuff Bob. The INT-60 would be a great way to go with your room.

[BlueFox]

I have a Pass pre and two Pass amps, and have been very happy with them. They are four years old now, and I have had zero problems with them. I did have to install solar since the amps doubled my electric bill the first month (July) that I had them. That is because I needed to run the AC whenever they are on. While the sound is the result of everything (gear, cables, power, room, etc.) I have been very happy with the end result. The only drawback is the amps will blow up your speakers if you have each one on a separate AC line.

[Mikado463]

The only drawback is the amps will blow up your speakers if you have each one on a separate AC line.

?????????????

[slowgeezr]

...The only drawback is the amps will blow up your speakers if you have each one on a separate AC line.

Nonsense! I've used Pass Monoblocs, plugged into separate AC lines for years, NO problems. I suggest you have your AC lines checked, if that happened to you.

[joeinid]

I think Bud is being funny, don't take it seriously. I remember a spirited listening session of his that resulted in applying too much volume in an ARI. Consequently, one speaker needed repair.

[BlueFox]

Nonsense! I've used Pass Monoblocs, plugged into separate AC lines for years, NO problems. I suggest you have your AC lines checked, if that happened to you.

LOL. When I had my source and amps plugged into the Triton power conditioner on a single 20 amp line, the circuit breaker would trip when I played the music LOUD. I added a second 20 amp AC line, along with a Shunyata Cyclop power conditioner, for both amps, and the circuit breaker on the second 20 amp line would trip when I played the music LOUD. I added a third 20 amp line, along with another Cyclop power conditioner, so that each amp had its own 20 amp circuit. Then when I played the music LOUD the circuit breakers do not trip. Rather the mid and tweeter in the speakers break.

So, the amps do blow up speakers when on separate circuits.

[joeinid]

Ha! We love you Bud. Experience is priceless.

[Mikado463]

LOL. When I had my source and amps plugged into the Triton power conditioner on a single 20 amp line, the circuit breaker would trip when I played the music LOUD. I added a second 20 amp AC line, along with a Shunyata Cyclop power conditioner, for both amps, and the circuit breaker on the second 20 amp line would trip when I played the music LOUD. I added a third 20 amp line, along with another Cyclop power conditioner, so that each amp had its own 20 amp circuit. Then when I played the music LOUD the circuit breakers do not trip. Rather the mid and tweeter in the speakers break.

So, the amps do blow up speakers when on separate circuits.

regardless Bud, you're making no sense if you think separate 20 amp circuits are at fault, keep drinking your 'kool aid' !

besides, most of us do not plug source and amplification onto the same circuit........

my apologies 'Old Bob' for getting your thread off track.

[rbbert]

BTW, in case you overlooked it, there is a dedicated Pass Lans forum here.

[rbbert]

regardless Bud, you're making no sense if you think separate 20 amp circuits are at fault, keep drinking your 'kool aid' !

besides, most of us do not plug source and amplification onto the same circuit........

my apologies 'Old Bob' for getting your thread off track.

I think you missed his point, although as Joe points out having read Bud's old posts about his experiences at the time makes it clearer to some of us. But to put it simply, give a high power amp enough current and it can blow speaker elements. That's not bad, in Bud's opinion

[Jack]

I don't think there was any Kool-Aid involved in any of those lessons of experience. Far from it.

[joeinid]

Kool-Aid and Vodka?

I don't think there was any Kool-Aid involved in any of those lessons of experience. Far from it.

[Mike]

Bud is cool in my books. I don't think my ears would have survived that night he blew up the S5's, but it sure would have been something to remember.


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[Mr Peabody]

Wow, Bud, I thought I rocked.... those amps are monsters, I can't imagine the SPL. How large is your room?

I have a dedicated 20 amp line for my amp, I had doubts an amp would draw that much. No more, thanks to Bud

[Randy Myers]

I own a First Watt F6 amplifier. It is the amp I use when I am not in the mood for tubes. Very sweet sounding amplifier. Power is a matter of need. You have a small room and if you are not looking to knock the walls down it will get plenty loud enough. My KEF are anything but efficient speakers and it produces enough power for me.

I will probably be moving the ARC amp soon so the FW and Quicksilver will be my main stays.

I am also considering moving the First Watt... EJ is coming out with a new revolutionary amplifier (maybe at RMAF)... a new technology that he has been perfecting for a very long time... I probably will have to have one.. so the FW will be the odd man out ...

[Jack]

Randy

Is the "new" amp a progression of the one he showed at CES last year that never appeared on the market?

[BlueFox]

The speaker incident is covered in the Magico forum. Let's just say it was an expensive lesson. LOL.

[Old Bob]

OK experts! here I am again, the beginner!

I did some checking. say you have a speaker with 86 dB sensitivity. so, one watt makes 86 decibel sound. 4 watts would make 92 decibels, plenty loud. 32 watts makes 101 db, like a live classical orchestra. my room is 13 by 13 feet. that is why I am struggling with this whole concept. I have a great Triode tube amp, class A 50 watts per channel. I love my amp. does this mean I am usually listening at say 10 watts of power or less???? lots of things going on here. I do not listen at deafening levels. I hear the boston symphony live pretty often and they are LOUD.
1. I THINK that the "weak link" in my stereo is my bowers and wilkins speakers. I love my oppo SACD player and REL sub woofers, have two. I wish to upgrade my speakers. they are PLENTY loud, but I think I could get BETTER sound.
2. I just want to learn about Pass Labs and first watt, even if I never buy any. just curious. he seems quite unusual.

dumb questions:
1. assuming I keep my triode 50 watt amp long term, what sort of sensitivity in my speakers should I be looking for? I want QUALITY sound, not LOUD sound.I have a recording of Helene Grimaud playing Brahms #2 piano concerto, and you hear her breathing. ( I also heard her breathing at her LIVE performance!) Mike Bovaird suggested focal sopra 1 speakers, which I never heard, but I am SURE are great! I trust Mike implicitly. would like specific recommendations for speakers here.
2. if I go a "strange" route and get a "low" powered amp, like First Watt, or others you guys know, which speakers would I need. I understand some of you get 8 watt amps, etc.

I still appreciate any and all comments! Mike, sounds as though you survived the hurricane!
best regards, bob

[Old Bob]

my speakers are rated at 88dB

[BlueFox]

Before my speaker drivers went kaput, I was sitting there just amazed that the Magico S5 speakers could sound so GOOD while playing so LOUD. I was literally being physically pounded by the SPL, and it sounded great. Actually, since the amps were rated at 1200 W/ch @ 4 ohm, and the Magicos were rated up to 1200 W, I was trying to find out where clipping and/or distortion started.

Pass makes great gear.

[rbbert]

Published sensitivity specs are often inaccurate. Further, sensitivity is (by convention) at a distance of 1 meter, from one speaker. So 2 speakers instantly doubles that, but loudness will fall off somewhere between the inverse square and the inverse cube of the distance, not accounting for room reinforcement.

[Mr Peabody]

You might want to take a look at Sonist Speakers, they are highly efficient, so will play loud enough with low watts. They set I heard sounded good, they use a ribbon tweeter.

I personally love electrostatic speakers with tubes, great for Classical, especially if more into strings. You already have the subs. Electrostats are more voltage driven so your amp shouldn't have a problem.

I prefer higher efficient speakers with tubes but I also don't like to run out of volume to spare.

[Randy Myers]

Randy

Is the "new" amp a progression of the one he showed at CES last year that never appeared on the market?

Hey Jack, Check the W4S forum thread... I am sure there is some bugs still to work out... but if all goes well I hope to listen to it at RMAF ... maybe I can get him to sneak it into the back room and fire it up with the KEF References... it's got to be broke in... right ...

[jadedavid]

Bob, IMO, your amp in your room and with your choice of listening volume is more than sufficient for the majority of speakers out there.
With you having subs, in that room I would use stand mount monitors. You can position the subs for the best bass and the monitors for best imaging and staging.
Many great stand mount speakers to choose from. Of course higher efficiency helps in dynamics and "speed" but I would not make efficiency as my top requirement.
The PASS amps that I have heard have always been both dynamic yet sweet. But they are not tube amps and while in some ways similar, they are still S.S. amps and have that signature.
As has been said many times, it is best to start with your speakers, and build your system from there.
Demo in your space if at all possible. Many of the more Botique manufacturers offer an audition period on their products.
Just remember, YMMV. But above all, Enjoy the Journey

[slowgeezr]

I once hooked up my DAC, which has no volume control, directly to the amps by mistake and when I hit play, my amps played at full volume into my Wilsons! I quickly shut it down, but jeez, I thought I must have blown something up! Fortunately, after hooking up correctly, I had no issues whatsoever. Does that mean Wilsons can take more punishment than Magicos?

[CharlesL]

"....Does that mean Wilsons can take more punishment than Magicos?"

Not necessarily. In Bud's case, I guess the signal passed though a preamp, which might put on further gain.

[BlueFox]

Not to sidetrack the thread, but there are many variables between the Wilson and Magico full power issue.

First, what are the amp ratings? What are the speaker ratings? How long was the system at full power?

I wish I had an engineering/QA job at Magico so I could explore these issues.