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  1. #151
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    The Wiki link has no scientific links to actual scientific test to validate any claims. It could have been written by you.
    It was , AJ at his finest .....

  2. #152
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    It was , AJ at his finest .....
    Well, you could always write a counter Wiki with the country mile long list of objective metrics where vinyl is better than digital.
    Got milk?

  3. #153
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    I don't get your point. There is nothing in the wiki link to indicate it was written by anyone with any understanding of what they are talking about. It could be a millennial still in college trying to make a term paper. It means nothing. There is no evidence the author has any experience of knowledge of what he wrote. So yes, that is my standard. Please use it in the future.
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  4. #154
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Well, you could always write a counter Wiki with the country mile long list of objective metrics where vinyl is better than digital.
    Got milk?
    like the 50Khz wide bandwidth of Analog LP vs Nyquist

  5. #155
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    like the 50Khz wide bandwidth of Analog LP vs Nyquist
    Nyquist specifies a 100k upper limit?? Show me.

  6. #156
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Is that what i said .... i dont think so ...

  7. #157
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Methinks you confuse Redbook and Nyquist. Take care when one strays outside ones field Mr Wayne...

  8. #158
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Nope , its your lack of extrapolation my man , Nyquist frequency of your digital playback of choice vs Analog Lp.

  9. #159
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Digital has no 100k upper limit.
    Your analog Wiki will have to do better than that
    Now lets agree that analog vinyl is inferior to Digital by every objective metric...but people can prefer whatever they wish...and flat out with some available media vinyl might be better and vice versa so another variable.
    Which leads to invalid comparisons. Soo..

  10. #160
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    I propose taking any uber TT system of choice playing back vinyl of choice and comparing against a digitized version of itself in real time so even pops and clicks come clear through.
    Have vinylphile easily pick out the "analog" version. Post on YouTube. Case settled.

  11. #161
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    lets all meet at Mikes shop in Florida around Thanksgiving. I will be in town then. I believe he would be willing to put on a display. Mike? ??
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  12. #162
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    I don't need an excuse to go to Mikes candy store��

    Ps though best leave wallets at home for safe keeping

  13. #163
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Kingrex View Post
    lets all meet at Mikes shop in Florida around Thanksgiving. I will be in town then. I believe he would be willing to put on a display. Mike? ??
    I would love that!! Let’s firm up a date at time gets closer.


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  14. #164
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    I propose taking any uber TT system of choice playing back vinyl of choice and comparing against a digitized version of itself in real time so even pops and clicks come clear through.
    Have vinylphile easily pick out the "analog" version. Post on YouTube. Case settled.
    I did that when I had the MSB at home. Didn’t post on YouTube. Was too depressed.


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  15. #165
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Well if Mr Wayne ends up looking like a turkey we'll have some cranberry sauce on hand

  16. #166
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    You know that turkey joke was actually pretty funny
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  17. #167
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    I am serious about meeting up at Mike's place. I've already talked with him on the phone about it. I'm going to be driving over from the Delray Boynton Beach area during the Thanksgiving week vacation. Not sure the day yet but I will firm up later. It would be great to meet anybody who could show up.
    First Sound Mark3SI preamp. Audion Black Shadow 845 SET Monoblocks. Mojo Audio Deja Vu Server. Mojo Audio Mystic 3 DAC. Linear Solution Ethernet Switch. Gigafoil with LPS. STST Motus II TT with Vertere SG1 arm, Hana ML Cartridge, Allnic H1201 phono pre. Pure Audio Project Trio 15 Horn speakers with Mundord Supreme oil caps. Power via 10 awg Oyaide cable from panel to custom distribution strip feeding front end. Oyaide dedicated10 AWG branch circuits from panel to each amp. Inakustik speaker and interconnect cables, Genesis Interconnect.
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  18. #168
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Digital has no 100k upper limit.
    Your analog Wiki will have to do better than that
    Now lets agree that analog vinyl is inferior to Digital by every objective metric...but people can prefer whatever they wish...and flat out with some available media vinyl might be better and vice versa so another variable.
    Which leads to invalid comparisons. Soo..

    Slipping left and right , only leaving digital slow pokes behind , Analog has no Limits which prevents it from reproducing audio at a more realistic level than digital in the real world , you have yet to back up your assertions,

    list of you high DR recordings played in your system
    list of your 120db DR recordings
    papers citing how much xtalk is necessary for good hifi reproduction

    The DR limit of analog LP vs digital is not an issue when most “philes” under powered audio systems can barely handle 28db of DR...


    try sticking to the plot ...

  19. #169
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Well if Mr Wayne ends up looking like a turkey we'll have some cranberry sauce on hand
    Still walking around with that cranberry drip ...


    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    I propose taking any uber TT system of choice playing back vinyl of choice and comparing against a digitized version of itself in real time so even pops and clicks come clear through.
    Have vinylphile easily pick out the "analog" version. Post on YouTube. Case settled
    I propose your propose and have the Digital bots pick out the “digital “ version ..

    Mic drop ......

  20. #170

    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Analog has no Limits which prevents it from reproducing audio at a more realistic level than digital in the real world , you have yet to back up your assertions,
    Really? No limits? You need to back up that assertion.

    I mean I love analog, but this is quite a bold claim. What about the physics of the groove?
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  21. #171
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Well please feel free to educate on what limits analog LP has preventing it from the reproduction of Music at a high level in audiophile systems ..?

    MR J loves the DR analogy that one fails, the advantages of digital does not translate in the real world , its storage and ease of use abilities aside ..

    its A Preference , Irony noted on both sides ....

  22. #172
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post

    Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield
    Digital has no 100k upper limit.

    Now lets agree that analog vinyl is inferior to Digital by every objective metric
    Analog has no Limits which prevents it from reproducing audio at a more realistic level than digital in the real world
    I see what you did there.

  23. #173

    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    The DR limit of analog LP vs digital is not an issue when most “philes” under powered audio systems can barely handle 28db of DR...
    I hope you don't have such a lousy system. It would be a complete fail on orchestral recordings, which usually are more or less uncompressed, at least on digital. And it's not just orchestral.
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  24. #174
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post

    MR J loves the DR analogy that one fails ..
    The DR databse it utterly useless.
    Bring your most dynamic LPs in Nov and I'll supply the digital and the P-P measurement mics

  25. #175

    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Well please feel free to educate on what limits analog LP has preventing it from reproduction of Music at a high level in audiophile systems ..?
    Did I mention the physics of the groove?

    See also here, posts #6 and # 11 (the latter by Alan Shaw, designer of Harbeth speakers):
    https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...91-vinyl-vs-cd
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  26. #176
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    I hope you don't have such a lousy system. It would be a complete fail on orchestral recordings, which usually are more or less uncompressed, at least on digital. And it's not just orchestral.

    There is no such thing as uncompressed recordings and i doubt your system can come close to live DR , as my lousy system ..

  27. #177
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    The DR databse it utterly useless.
    Bring your most dynamic LPs in Nov and I'll supply the digital and the P-P measurement mics

  28. #178
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Al M. View Post
    Did I mention the physics of the groove?

    See also here, posts #6 and # 11 (the latter by Alan Shaw, designer of Harbeth speakers):
    https://www.harbeth.co.uk/usergroup/...91-vinyl-vs-cd


  29. #179
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    The DR databse it utterly useless.
    Bring your most dynamic LPs in Nov and I'll supply the digital and the P-P measurement mics

    Bring your class D amps too , might as well squash all your assumptions in one go ..

  30. #180
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    MR J loves the DR analogy that one fails, the advantages of digital does not translate in the real world
    Frequency response, noise, groove echo, channel separation, speed errors, dynamic range, degradation/variability each play come to mind.
    That you are arguing that vinyl isn't inferior to digital by any objective metric other than price, is silly.

  31. #181
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Bring your class D amps too , might as well squash all your assumptions in one go ..
    Will do. You're really looking to be quite the YouTube star

  32. #182
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    No that's your argument but feel free to fake it anyway you wish , i said none of those limits analog LP from reproducing audio at a high level in the real world , nothing about Having superiority to measured data and metrics ..

    But continue to deflect from your 120db DR advantage or hide from listing your high DR recordings , by any measure of order analog TT , FR and DR Is more than enough for your Audio system vs digital ...


    Turn up Nov ... Both you and Rex will have the chance to pick out the digital recording ..



    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    Frequency response, noise, groove echo, channel separation, speed errors, dynamic range, degradation/variability each play come to mind.
    That you are arguing that vinyl isn't inferior to by any objective metric other than price, is silly.

  33. #183
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    i said none of those limits analog LP from reproducing audio at a high level in the real world , nothing about Having superiority to measured data and metrics ..
    That finally sounds like an admission that vinyl is objective metrics inferior. Btw, only strawmen are arguing that vinyl can't reproduce at a "high level", whatever that means to who made it up.

  34. #184
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Whats that ..? your DR advantage list , wait , what ..!



    Dont wash off your cranberry drip , i sense necessity around the corner ...!

    Where’s Al M , he has the uncompressed classical music list ..


  35. #185
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    Turn up Nov ... Both you and Rex will have the chance to pick out the digital recording ..
    As will you sir, as will you


    Get ready to spin that wheel
    Attached Images Attached Images

  36. #186
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    A magician at heart ehhh ....

  37. #187
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Both A.Wayne and AJ can’t come (kidding of course). The rest of us will make a serious dent in my scotch and Irish Whiskey stash, listening to music and have fun. Vinyl, digital, whatever.


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  38. #188
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    That too Mike ...

  39. #189
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by AJ Soundfield View Post
    The exact opposite. I regularly hear a system capable of 120+ db dynamic range, with much lower noise, distortion, higher channel separation, lower temporal distortion, vastly better bass depth and power, than any objectively limited vinyl system regardless of price.
    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    list of your 120db DR recordings
    You need to read a bit slower Mr Wayne. All the overexcitement has you hallucinating, i.e. seeing what isn't there.

  40. #190
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    The rest of us will make a serious dent in my scotch and Irish Whiskey stash, listening to music and have fun. Vinyl, digital, whatever.
    Woohoo!

  41. #191
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    A magician at heart ehhh ....
    Tools of the Devil.

    Attached Images Attached Images

  42. #192

    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post

    Where’s Al M , he has the uncompressed classical music list ..

    I said more or less uncompressed. And I think some of my string quartet and piano recordings, for example, are not compressed at all. Outstanding dynamics.
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  43. #193
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Mike View Post
    Both A.Wayne and AJ can’t come (kidding of course). The rest of us will make a serious dent in my scotch and Irish Whiskey stash, listening to music and have fun. Vinyl, digital, whatever.


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    Dammit Mike... I want to come but my wife has already decided that we will be going to Washington then ....
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  44. #194
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by Randy Myers View Post
    Dammit Mike... I want to come but my wife has already decided that we will be going to Washington then ....
    That sucks. Next time!
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  45. #195
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Hey Mike can I come? I will be sneaking the MBLs out the side door while you referee. Looks like you are going to have your hands full.
    Marty

    Aurender N20 / SonicTransporter i7 / Roon
    MSB Premier
    Constellation Inspiration Preamp 1.0 / Mono 1.0
    Dynaudio Confidence 50 / SVS SB13 Ultra
    PS Audio Powerplant 15

  46. #196
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by nc42acc View Post
    Hey Mike can I come? I will be sneaking the MBLs out the side door while you referee. Looks like you are going to have your hands full.
    Absolutely!
    My Systems: http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...481#post158481

    "We can hear everything we measure, but we can't measure everything we hear. Let your ears be your guide."

    Dealer for: Aqua Hi-Fi, Aurender, AudioQuest Cables & Power Products, Berkeley Audio, Block Audio (distributor), Boulder Amplifiers, Bowers & Wilkins (B&W), Bryston, Clarisys Audio Loudspeakers (distributor), Classe’ Audio, Degritter Record Cleaning Machines, Esoteric, Finite Elemente, FirstWatt, Focal Loudspeakers and Headphones, GigaFoil, Harbeth Loudspeakers, Hegel, HiFi Man, Innuos, ISO Acoustics, Keces Power Supplies, Kharma Loudspeakers and Electronics, Kuzma Turntables, Lumin, Luxman, Magico Loudspeakers, MBL Speakers & Electronics, MSB Technologies, MySonicLabs Phono Cartridges, Nordost Cables, Ortofon, Pass Labs, Quadraspire, Rega Turntables and Electronics, Shunyata Research, STAX, Stein Music Products, Stillpoints, Soulution, VAC, Vicoustics, Viva Audio, VPI Industries, WireWorld Cables.

    https://suncoastaudio.com/
    Phone: 941-932-0282
    Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/Suncoast-Au...1105178279194/

  47. #197
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    I sold my entire LP collection about 2-3 years ago- something like 30 boxes which was carted away in a lorry and have never longed for LP's again. I have one of two signed LP in storage.

    I can appreciate a good TT and be mesmerized by the engineering skill that lies behind TT technology but that is where it stays. I will not invest another cent into the technology.

    I will concede that digital on low end equipment might be inferior to LP but with high end digital equipment, digital sources simply outclass the very best LP systems. Snap crack and pop might not be offensive on a small speaker system but on a big rig it pretty much spoils everything for me. I now have more goose bump moments with digital source material than what I ever had with a TT. Add to that the knowledge that digital is just going to get better makes the digital option the only logical choice for me.

    The only down side with expensive high end digital equipment is that it becomes worthless relatively fast whereas speakers and amps have a better resale value 5 years later. My take is simple, - I want maximum enjoyment from my current system. The resale value in the distant future, is irrelevant.

  48. #198
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by nc42acc View Post
    Hey Mike can I come? I will be sneaking the MBLs out the side door while you referee. Looks like you are going to have your hands full.
    He's going to need more booze
    Of course if Mikes sells something here he is

    Attached Images Attached Images
    2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)

  49. #199
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    Quote Originally Posted by a.wayne View Post
    There is no such thing as uncompressed recordings
    LOL. Can you guess what I'm bringing to the party?
    As I said Mr Wayne, bring those trusted ears and the widest dynamic range vinyl you have. I'll bring the truth serum box, p-p SPL measurement mic/hardware and what you think doesn't exist above. We're going to all see about that 19th century tech vinyl vs digital dynamic range thing first hand.

  50. #200
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    Re: Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

    I am really enjoying this thread. Proper banter but very interesting. Is good that no-one has resorted to personal attacks. Keep it going!
    Digital: Innuos Zenith Mk3 Server + MSB Premier DAC with Powerbase
    Amp: Gryphon Pandora + Gryphon Antileon Evo Stereo
    Speakers: Magico S3 MkII
    Cables: MIT SL-Matrix 36 XLR interconnect cables + 70 speaker cables; AQ Diamond & Vodka ethernet cables
    Power: AQ Niagara 5000 + AQ Tornado power cables
    Headphones (travel): Sennheiser Momentum + Chord Mojo

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Analog and Vinyl: no longer the benchmark

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