Why do you use a passive preamp over an active one in your system?

**joeinid** · July 26, 2016, 12:00 PM

Can you help me understand the benefits to passive preamps and why you chose one for your system?

**audio.bill** · July 26, 2016, 02:55 PM

I have used several different passive linestages over the years and find they do have some strengths over most active preamps in the right system. System matching is critical to determine whether a passive preamp will work in a given system and it's really best to try any specific setup to determine suitability. The general rule is that they work best with high input impedance amps and low output impedance sources, and that you will have enough gain without an active linestage. The benefits in a well matched system are absolute silent backgrounds and a very transparent sound. In the right system their sound can be captivating. If you have shortcomings in the source or amp they will be clearly revealed with a passive linestage. Another potential limitation with a passive linestage can be limited dynamics, but if it's a good match this shouldn't be the case. I've found that to achieve comparable or better sound quality with an active linestage is generally very expensive. For those like myself using analog front ends an active linestage is usually required for the additional gain that they provide. Hope this helps!

**Anatta** · July 26, 2016, 03:58 PM

The Ayre amps with their huge input impedance are certainly fit for passive pres.

**joeinid** · July 26, 2016, 06:03 PM

Thank you Gentlemen. Helps tremendously!

I see that Marty and Tomy2 are using the Hattor passives so I've reached out for info to see what they are all about.

**kevinkwann** · July 26, 2016, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Anatta

The Ayre amps with their huge input impedance are certainly fit for passive pres.

Not necessarily. Input impedance is only part of the equation. The input sensitivity of the original MX-R, for example, was 25.53 dB according to measurements done by Stereophile. This is lower than optimal--much lower--for a passive solution. While there are no hard and fast rules, I wouldn't even consider passive preamplification unless the amplifier being utilized had gain of >28 dB.

**audio.bill** · July 26, 2016, 07:28 PM

Kevin makes a very valid point in that the total gain of the amplification chain is a further consideration. With a passive linestage the only gain will be provided by the power amp alone, so depending upon your source output voltage and the sensitivity of your speakers lower gain amplifiers can cause further compatibility issues.

**Jack** · July 26, 2016, 07:42 PM

Joe

If your primary source is going to be the Lumin and you use the balanced outputs into the Hattor the 4 volts provided should help alleviate part of the problem. I used the STP-SE with your Nords for a brief time and they are speced at 26 db. I didn't find it to be a problem and I think I was running the DAC out of the SE outputs at that time. I think Marty has used his Hattor with multiple amps.

**Anatta** · July 26, 2016, 08:17 PM

The MX-R20 have a 25.1dB gain according to Stereophile measurements; this means they need 2.7V from the source for 300W output. With the Lumin's 4V balanced outputs there won't be an issue at all with a passive pre.

Even if a source max output would be only 2V that would limit the MX-Rs max output at 160W, retaining about 3dB of headroom, which is a good thing.

**Anatta** · July 26, 2016, 08:32 PM

As a side note, even the Ayre KX-R20 preamp has only 0.55dB maximum gain, so it's mostly an attenuator.

**Randy Myers** · July 27, 2016, 01:25 AM

I am very satisfied with the STP-SE. I doubt I have ever pushed it beyond the passive mode into active, but it is nice to know that if needed it is there.

I līke the way the pre-amp just gets out of the way. Extremely open sounding, and dead quite.

**joeinid** · July 27, 2016, 01:50 AM

I think Ayre prides itself on mostly getting out of the way for an active preamp.

Originally Posted by Anatta

As a side note, even the Ayre KX-R20 preamp has only 0.55dB maximum gain, so it's mostly an attenuator.

**wklie** · July 27, 2016, 03:16 AM

I believe this article is a good summary presenting the pros and cons of the passives.
http://www.tortugaaudio.com/what-is-...-preamplifier/

I've noticed that people who chose active over passive usually cited poor dynamics as a reason.

Lumin players have 4V XLR output and 2V RCA output. So low source voltage is not a problem for Lumin users. Some people have too much gain in their systems, so Lumin offers an optional setting of "low analog output level" to help slightly.

My personal system has Lumin XLR output to STP-SE.

**Anatta** · July 27, 2016, 06:24 AM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I think Ayre prides itself on mostly getting out of the way for an active preamp.

Yes, with only 0.55dB max gain the KX-R is just a buffer that helps matching the source to any amp. Makes sense to get one if you have a low input impedance amp; but it's not the case with Ayre's 2 megaOhm input MX-Rs.

I think you should try the balanced Tortuga and Placette passives with your Ayre amps before deciding to get the KX-R.

From the Tortuga article:

Regardless of the level of gain (or absence of gain, i.e. unity gain), all active preamps buffer the input from the output. A buffer acts as an electronic firewall between the source and the amp. A good buffer has very high input impedance making the job of the source very easy. Easy means the source puts out very little current while sending out the audio signal (i.e. voltage). Conversely, a good buffer has very low output impedance and high current delivery capacity making it compatible with virtually every amplifier in the world regardless of the amp’s input impedance. This broad compatibility is arguably the only benefit of active preamplifiers. A good buffer can enhance the dynamics (pluck, punch, slam etc.) of the music if the source isn’t quite up to the job.

**Shadowfax** · July 27, 2016, 07:43 AM

So I guess my VAC is somewhere in the middle? I have Normal and High Gain and a Buffered Passive Mode. I'm not the most electrical savvy so still not sure.

The article mentions Buffered, but under the Active section. So that's what confuses me. I don't really have one or the other.
From the noted article
"Conversely, a good buffer has very low output impedance and high current delivery capacity making it compatible with virtually every amplifier in the world regardless of the amp’s input impedance. This broad compatibility is arguably the only benefit of active preamplifiers. A good buffer can enhance the dynamics (pluck, punch, slam etc.) of the music if the source isn’t quite up to the job."

So I gather it helps make this pre more compatible with a wider range of amps?

I usually run in Normal Gain, but find when I play it at the same volume in the BP Mode, I can still have a conversation in the room because the slam in missing. So again I assume that is what is meant by "lacking dynamics"?

I don't spend enough time just listening to the BP Mode but it does provide a nice clear sound that can be turned up without your head being pounded.

This is the description from the VAC manuals-

In the Passive-Buffered mode the amplifying triode (V4) is bypassed, and the controls are fed
directly to a Class A impedance translating Class A triode tube (V5). Since the output is buffered,
there are no gross cable interaction problems of the type encountered with passive control centers;
since there is no gain stage, this mode has ‘unity gain’. The VAC Passive-Buffered mode is
capable of driving long cable runs and the preamplifier may be located some distance from the
power amplifiers.
Since the Passive-Buffered mode has zero gain, you may need to turn the volume controls well
clockwise...the exact position depends on the output level from your source, and the sensitivity of
your power amplifiers and loudspeakers. Many audiophiles have the belief that it is never good to
run volume controls wide open. With a circuit of this type, however, it is actually preferable to do
so. Don't worry about where the control is set, just be concerned with how it sounds. The Passive-
Buffered mode does not invert absolute phase with respect to the line inputs.

So how does my VAC differ from one or the other, if there is a simple explanation?

**joeinid** · July 27, 2016, 08:21 AM

Originally Posted by wklie

I believe this article is a good summary presenting the pros and cons of the passives.
http://www.tortugaaudio.com/what-is-...-preamplifier/

I've noticed that people who chose active over passive usually cited poor dynamics as a reason.

Lumin players have 4V XLR output and 2V RCA output. So low source voltage is not a problem for Lumin users. Some people have too much gain in their systems, so Lumin offers an optional setting of "low analog output level" to help slightly.

My personal system has Lumin XLR output to STP-SE.

Great endorsement for the Wyred. Thank you.

**joeinid** · July 27, 2016, 08:22 AM

Thanks for posting everyone, please keep 'em coming. I am learning a lot with all the new info.

**audio.bill** · July 27, 2016, 08:31 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

So I guess my VAC is somewhere in the middle? I have Normal and High Gain and a Buffered Passive Mode. I'm not the most electrical savvy so still not sure.

The article mentions Buffered, but under the Active section. So that's what confuses me. I don't really have one or the other.
From the noted article
"Conversely, a good buffer has very low output impedance and high current delivery capacity making it compatible with virtually every amplifier in the world regardless of the amp’s input impedance. This broad compatibility is arguably the only benefit of active preamplifiers. A good buffer can enhance the dynamics (pluck, punch, slam etc.) of the music if the source isn’t quite up to the job."

So I gather it helps make this pre more compatible with a wider range of amps?

I usually run in Normal Gain, but find when I play it at the same volume in the BP Mode, I can still have a conversation in the room because the slam in missing. So again I assume that is what is meant by "lacking dynamics"?

I don't spend enough time just listening to the BP Mode but it does provide a nice clear sound that can be turned up without your head being pounded.

This is the description from the VAC manuals-

In the Passive-Buffered mode the amplifying triode (V4) is bypassed, and the controls are fed
directly to a Class A impedance translating Class A triode tube (V5). Since the output is buffered,
there are no gross cable interaction problems of the type encountered with passive control centers;
since there is no gain stage, this mode has ‘unity gain’. The VAC Passive-Buffered mode is
capable of driving long cable runs and the preamplifier may be located some distance from the
power amplifiers.
Since the Passive-Buffered mode has zero gain, you may need to turn the volume controls well
clockwise...the exact position depends on the output level from your source, and the sensitivity of
your power amplifiers and loudspeakers. Many audiophiles have the belief that it is never good to
run volume controls wide open. With a circuit of this type, however, it is actually preferable to do
so. Don't worry about where the control is set, just be concerned with how it sounds. The Passive-
Buffered mode does not invert absolute phase with respect to the line inputs.

So how does my VAC differ from one or the other, if there is a simple explanation?

While VAC calls their BP Mode 'passive', it's actually an active buffer (they describe it as an "impedance translating Class A triode tube (V5)".) They're using the term 'passive' since it's a zero gain stage but it's clearly active as they describe it.

**joeinid** · July 27, 2016, 08:33 AM

Hi Jack,

The Lumin is my primary source right now but I will need to hook up a TT and may eventually add another dac, a la Lampizator. I miss mine terribly.

Originally Posted by Jack

Joe

If your primary source is going to be the Lumin and you use the balanced outputs into the Hattor the 4 volts provided should help alleviate part of the problem. I used the STP-SE with your Nords for a brief time and they are speced at 26 db. I didn't find it to be a problem and I think I was running the DAC out of the SE outputs at that time. I think Marty has used his Hattor with multiple amps.

**Shadowfax** · July 27, 2016, 08:37 AM

Originally Posted by audio.bill

While VAC calls their BP Mode 'passive', it's actually an active buffer (they describe it as an "impedance translating Class A triode tube (V5)".) They're using the term 'passive' since it's a zero gain stage but it's clearly active as they describe it.

It basically just bypasses the gain tubes, but still uses the other set. It does have the sound characteristics explained about Passive, but really a hybrid between the two types.

Are there any other Pres that have similar features?

**CPP** · July 27, 2016, 08:43 AM

Originally Posted by wklie

I believe this article is a good summary presenting the pros and cons of the passives.
http://www.tortugaaudio.com/what-is-...-preamplifier/

I've noticed that people who chose active over passive usually cited poor dynamics as a reason.

Lumin players have 4V XLR output and 2V RCA output. So low source voltage is not a problem for Lumin users. Some people have too much gain in their systems, so Lumin offers an optional setting of "low analog output level" to help slightly.

My personal system has Lumin XLR output to STP-SE.

Same here " Lumin XLR output to STP-SE."

**Anatta** · July 27, 2016, 08:59 AM

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

I usually run in Normal Gain, but find when I play it at the same volume in the BP Mode, I can still have a conversation in the room because the slam in missing. So again I assume that is what is meant by "lacking dynamics"?

So how does my VAC differ from one or the other, if there is a simple explanation?

No, the lacking dynamics with a passive pre are due to impedance mismatch and the robustness of the source output stage.

With VAC in Buffered Passive mode, since it works at unity gain (0dB gain), you get to hear more of the sound character of your CD player output stage. When you select the Normal or High gain, the VAC pre enhances dinamically the sound signature of the Rotel player with its own gain stage signature. But there are sources with output stages that do not need this enhancement from a preamp.

A buffer assures there won't be an impedance mismatch, but will not enhance the sound produced by the source. If the sound lacks dynamics in Buffered Passive mode, it means the source lacks dynamics.

**Jack** · July 27, 2016, 09:10 AM

Joe

I have not had any issue with the Wyred and either a TT/phono pre or any DAC I have tried with it. If the DAC has XLR outputs the same rules apply as with the Lumin.

**joeinid** · July 27, 2016, 09:29 AM

I know, it must be a great piece. Thanks!

Originally Posted by Jack

Joe

I have not had any issue with the Wyred and either a TT/phono pre or any DAC I have tried with it. If the DAC has XLR outputs the same rules apply as with the Lumin.

**Randy Myers** · July 27, 2016, 09:37 AM

I also have had no issues with the STP-SE. I use XLR from the DAC and RCA from the Marantz spinner... both work great and are very dynamic.

**jahjahlove** · July 27, 2016, 01:03 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

Can you help me understand the benefits to passive preamps and why you chose one for your system?

Part of the answer is in gain structure.... http://www.diyaudio.com/forums/diyau...structure.html
most of our systems have too much gain... active preamps are attenuator if your source is outputing 2V (Cd player, DAC)...

**wklie** · July 27, 2016, 09:59 PM

Originally Posted by Shadowfax

Are there any other Pres that have similar features?

Pass B1 is a buffer preamp with no gain:
https://www.passdiy.com/pdf/B1%20Buffer%20Preamp.pdf

**audio.bill** · July 27, 2016, 10:16 PM

While primarily designed as a phono stage, the Manley Steelhead has a line input which feeds an active unity gain buffer.

**wklie** · July 28, 2016, 06:01 AM

Originally Posted by Anatta

the VAC pre enhances dinamically the sound signature of the Rotel player with its own gain stage signature. But there are sources with output stages that do not need this enhancement from a preamp.

Of the posts made by people who heard both active and passive across different forums, my impression is that a significant proportion of them preferred active, e.g.
http://www.audioshark.org/showthread...l=1#post167944

While a number of those cases could have been caused by passive preamp configuration issues like impedance mismatch or source/cable problem(s), I speculate that the majority of people simply prefer the enhancements made by an active preamp - especially a tube preamp - instead of a unity gain preamp that may possibly sound closer to the actual recording in theory.

In the audiophile world, more accurate audio reproduction may not necessarily be felt as the more "musical" or "emotionally engaging" playback. I once did an A/B comparison between the 300B SET tube amp I've been using and the class-D amplifier my company makes, and the result...

**tomy2** · July 28, 2016, 11:34 AM

Great thread Joe.

Last year I had tried a Tortuga LDR with a DSPeaker 2.0 as the dac (as well as room correction) and a ss amp with a gain of 34db. I can't remember if I was using the output of 7v with single ended or 14v with balanced on the DSPeaker but it seemed to be too much either way as it didn't sound as good as the Rogue Perseus I had at the time. The DSPeaker also has a low output impedance of 10 ohms from what I read and maybe it just wasnt a good match. I tried all the input impedances of the Tortuga but could never get a sound that I thought was better than the tubed preamp.

Fast forward to now I have a Lampi L4 dac with 2.5v output and 600 ohms of output impedance going into the Hattor passive going into the Nord amps that have 26db gain and I'm getting fabulous results. I don't know if its the constant input impedance of the Hattor that Arek Kallas has implemented or if I just have a good match between all the components but the Hattor is providing a window into the music that I'm not getting with my current tubed preamp (not the Rogue). The detail and level of realism is uncanny.

**joeinid** · July 28, 2016, 12:19 PM

Thanks Tom, I've always been curious and in my limited experience have preferred a preamp to no preamp and an active one as opposed to passive but am willing to try again assuming conditions are right.

**Randy Myers** · July 28, 2016, 12:28 PM

OMG, limited experience, really Joe

.... I dare say you have tried more equipment than any of us

....

**joeinid** · July 28, 2016, 12:38 PM

I'm humble too

**Randy Myers** · July 28, 2016, 12:41 PM

That you are

...

**bzr** · July 28, 2016, 05:00 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I'm humble too

.... Yeah. ahhh nothing like pie!!

**joeinid** · July 28, 2016, 05:04 PM

Originally Posted by bzr

.... Yeah. ahhh nothing like pie!!

Ha!

**the professor** · July 28, 2016, 07:09 PM

Joe

Have you tried going from your Lumin straight into the Ayre amp?

**joeinid** · July 28, 2016, 08:57 PM

I have not. Mainly because I am worried that a glitch or something may end up giving me full volume and I'll have no way to control it other than to pull a power cord. With a preamp, at least I have some control in between.

Originally Posted by the professor

Joe

Have you tried going from your Lumin straight into the Ayre amp?

**wklie** · July 28, 2016, 10:56 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I have not. Mainly because I am worried that a glitch or something may end up giving me full volume and I'll have no way to control it other than to pull a power cord. With a preamp, at least I have some control in between.

In case some day you want to try it, enable Volume Control and disable Digital Audio Output in Lumin app. Turn down the volume and verify it before you attempt a direct connection. You'll then be using the 32-bit digital volume in the ESS9018 chips in the Lumin S1:
http://www.esstech.com/files/3014/40...me-control.pdf

Note: The high 2Mohm input impedance of MX-R Twenty, or the 1Mohm input impedance of M400, are ideally suited for direct-to-amp experiments (not recommendations) whereas Pass .5 series with low 20kohm input impedance is less suitable.

**the professor** · July 29, 2016, 12:25 AM

Ive used the Lumin straight into amps before and it was pretty dang good. If I only used the lumin as a source id be very tempted to sell the preamp.

Worth a try. I do believe the Lumin is extremely stable.

**George47** · July 31, 2016, 01:17 PM

Joe,

I use the Nord Class D power amp and have got the Khozmo preamp in the system and it works really well. I am looking to get the Hattor as that has XLR outputs. For me the passive attenuators give a very natural, relaxed and 3D type of sound. TVCs and active preamps tend to give you a more upfront sound with tight driving bass. The actives do not have the same amount of detail as resistor passives, unless very good. I find the resistor passives easier to listen to for a longer time. A lot of active preamps are very upfront and in a few cases a bit wearing and overly impressive. IMHO they give you a real taste of the high end without the super price tag which can only be a good thing.

**mep** · July 31, 2016, 07:28 PM

If you use a passive preamp, you probably are a digital only guy.

**George47** · August 22, 2016, 04:58 AM

For those who may be interested here is my review of this preamp:

http://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/11...-preamplifier/

**Mate** · November 26, 2016, 03:24 PM

Originally Posted by George47

http://hifiwigwam.com/forum/topic/11...-preamplifier/

Hi,
I was very interested in these Polish Khozmo passive preamps about a year ago. But then I bought Audeze head-amp as active preamp, sold it and bought Burson head-amp as active preamp.
Now my brother is thinking about passive preamp for his system. We know an expert who has been making his own power amps, active and passive preamps, all types of cables and power cords and power conditioners, for decades. He gave one of his passive preamps to my brother a week ago. Brother loves the sound. That expert explained to me that there are resistor-based passive preamps and transformer passive preamps. I'm no expert so don't ask me any details, but that expert said that those two types of passive preamps are quite different and that resistor-based ones are no match for transformer passive preamps. And that is why he is against these pretty and popular Khozmo preamps, because they are resistor-based, and not nearly as good as his transformer passive preamps. He also says that an ultimate preamp is passive transformer preamp.

Maybe this will be of some help or interest to someone. Maybe I'll end up with a passive preamp one day too.

**joeinid** · November 26, 2016, 06:48 PM

I'm not sure what type my Wyred STP-SE is but I love the way it "sounds". Extremely great value. I have it playing with my Accuphase A36 on my new JBL 4312D's.

**CPP** · November 26, 2016, 06:52 PM

Originally Posted by joeinid

I'm not sure what type my Wyred STP-SE is but I love the way it "sounds". Extremely great value. I have it playing with my Accuphase A36 on my new JBL 4312D's.

Its both Joe. It works as a passive until you feel the need to crank the volume up then it adds some gain .

Hey mep, I use the W4S STP-SE with my Chinook and it works great, and with my Lumin and my CD player and my DAC, just a all around decent working pre-amp. .

**Jack** · November 26, 2016, 07:48 PM

Works great with my Analog setup too.

**Randy Myers** · November 26, 2016, 08:27 PM

The STP-SE is a resistor ladder hybrid... you have to push it quite high before it kicks to active though.

**Jack** · November 26, 2016, 08:36 PM

You need to go above 66 to get to the active buffer stage. I have never come anywhere close even with the 82db sensitivity Vandersteen Treo. With the KO's or the Spatials, 30 is loud.

**Randy Myers** · November 26, 2016, 09:03 PM

Maybe with a First Watt amplifier

... but never got it out of the 40's.... so it is pretty much a passive pre-amplifier.

**a.wayne** · November 27, 2016, 11:25 AM

Originally Posted by Mate

Hi,
I was very interested in these Polish Khozmo passive preamps about a year ago. But then I bought Audeze head-amp as active preamp, sold it and bought Burson head-amp as active preamp.
Now my brother is thinking about passive preamp for his system. We know an expert who has been making his own power amps, active and passive preamps, all types of cables and power cords and power conditioners, for decades. He gave one of his passive preamps to my brother a week ago. Brother loves the sound. That expert explained to me that there are resistor-based passive preamps and transformer passive preamps. I'm no expert so don't ask me any details, but that expert said that those two types of passive preamps are quite different and that resistor-based ones are no match for transformer passive preamps. And that is why he is against these pretty and popular Khozmo preamps, because they are resistor-based, and not nearly as good as his transformer passive preamps. He also says that an ultimate preamp is passive transformer preamp.

Maybe this will be of some help or interest to someone. Maybe I'll end up with a passive preamp one day too.

The transformer type will have more gain and hence more dynamics , same for an active pre-amp ..

IMO , Full passive for smooth and easy Because dynamic and "real" is not your thing .....

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