THE ultimate system

**AJR** · February 20, 2018, 01:38 PM

I feel like being provocative

. What is the ultimate, cost no object system? Am shooting from the hip here - haven’t heard ANY of this.

Mine is:
- D’Agostino Momentum Preamp
- D’Agostino Momentum 400 Monoblocks
- MSB Select DAC fully pimped
- Magico M6

Cables, power etc is a whole other debate.

**Golum** · February 20, 2018, 02:11 PM

Lets have one Swiss made

:
Nagra HD preamp
DarTzeel NHB-458 monoblocks
Nagra HD DAC or CH Precision C1 Reference
Stenheim Reference Statement LS
Brand Cables

And if some pocket change remains you get yourself some cheap Patek Philippe to take care about it for future generation and you are good to go

**asiufy** · February 20, 2018, 02:13 PM

Originally Posted by AJR

I feel like being provocative

. What is the ultimate, cost no object system? Am shooting from the hip here - haven’t heard ANY of this.

Mine is:
- D’Agostino Momentum Preamp
- D’Agostino Momentum 400 Monoblocks
- MSB Select DAC fully pimped
- Magico M6

Cables, power etc is a whole other debate.

Funny, we have two clients with SELECT and D'Agostino Momentums 400s

Different speakers, of course... Both cases, no preamp.

**asindc** · February 20, 2018, 03:15 PM

Rooms- At least 2 Custom-built rooms with your type of speakers and musical preferences (small jazz club, large concert venue) in mind.

Power conditioning- Whatever works best for your listening environment.

Speakers- Tidal Assoluta or MBL Xtreme; their smaller versions in the smaller room.

Preamp/Amps- Tidal or MBL; Gryphon Diablo 300 or T+A PA 3100 HV Integrated in the smaller room.

Digital- MSB Select II, fully tricked out, including upcoming Transport; Aurender W20 or N10.

Vinyl- Pick your flavor among TTs and Tonearms; Air Tight Opus, Lyra Atlas SL, Koetsu Corelstone, Miyajima Zero Mono, Clearaudio GF Statement, Transfiguration Proteus D, and Ortofon 2M Black (to play bargain bin LPs on) cartridges.

R2R- UHA Ultima2 tape deck, fully tricked out.

Cabling- Pick your flavor.

**SharkBG** · February 20, 2018, 03:21 PM

Originally Posted by Golum

Lets have one Swiss made

:
Nagra HD preamp
DarTzeel NHB-458 monoblocks
Nagra HD DAC or CH Precision C1 Reference
Stenheim Reference Statement LS
Brand Cables

And if some pocket change remains you get yourself some cheap Patek Philippe to take care about it for future generation and you are good to go

Anything from CH precision?

**Al M.** · February 20, 2018, 03:45 PM

There is no ultimate system.

No single system does everything equally well and better than any other system.

If I had unlimited resources, I'd opt for a system with large speakers (e.g. Magico M6) in a large room for all the large-scale music, in particular orchestral. In another room I'd have a SOTA monitor/sub based system for more intimate music.

There is a reason that many venues for classical music have at least two halls, one large hall and a 'chamber music' hall. Not all music fits perfectly into just one hall (audience sizes per event aside). Same with home production, not all music fits perfectly with just one system, in a single room.

**asindc** · February 20, 2018, 03:52 PM

Originally Posted by Al M.

There is no ultimate system.

No single system does everything equally well and better than any other system.

If I had unlimited resources, I'd opt for a system with large speakers (e.g. Magico M6) in a large room for all the large-scale music, in particular orchestral. In another room I'd have a SOTA monitor/sub based system for more intimate music.

There is a reason that many venues for classical music have at least two halls, one large hall and a 'chamber music' hall. Not all music fits perfectly into just one hall (audience sizes per event aside). Same with home production, not all music fits perfectly with just one system, in a single room.

Excellent point about rooms (see my post above). I'll amend my post to include at least to 2 dedicated listening rooms.

**still-one** · February 20, 2018, 06:56 PM

Of course there is no single best system. That said I might go this way.

Mine is:
- D’Agostino Momentum Preamp
- D’Agostino Momentum 400 Monoblocks
- MSB Select DAC or full dCS Vivaldi Stack not sure which
- MBL Xtremes

**Mordante** · February 25, 2018, 04:52 AM

I was thinking about a dream/ultimate setup. But it's difficult. There are two sets of which I know that they work great. But it all depends on room size.

1)
Octave Jubilee amps (mono's and pre amp)
Blumenhofer speaker
Reed turn table with Reed arm and VdH cart
Aurender streamer
EMMlabs DAC

2)

**XV-1** · February 25, 2018, 08:04 AM

Ok, I will play based on what I have heard around the traps.

The Genesis Prime - Dragon Edition speakers - after hearing the big Genesis speakers in HK a couple of years ago, they are the best speakers I have heard. It was like being a live venue with all the benefits of and none of the drawbacks.

amps and pre amp - not sure what would go well with the Genesis as they need 6 amps I believe - but lets look at set of D'Agostino Momentum M400 mono's and pre amp or perhaps the CH amps. A cj GAT preamp for a change in voicing.

turntables: Techdas AF1 with Thales Reference and SAT tonearms. + Technics Sp10Mk3 NGS Paramount Direct Drive Mercedes Benz Obsidian Micro Suede with Thales Reference and SAT tonearms. each with Lyra Atlas SL and Clearaudio Goldfinger Statement.

**wisnon** · February 25, 2018, 02:15 PM

If you are gonna talk about Uber systems, the Tidal/Stenheim/Goldmund/Genesis/EA/VS/LWhite, etc speakers must be included in the conversation.

So much good stuff out there without even going to crazy prices...
Pick your poison.

**Mike Lavigne** · February 25, 2018, 02:50 PM

I kinda like my little old system.......and my choice(s) of amplifiers, dart 458's + Lamm ML3 Signatures (just arrived) is right up there.....and then there is the whole 800 pound gorilla of the building and room to consider. you start there and I did that part. MSB Select II + a couple of Studer A-820's and the new AS-2000 tt. the 1500 pound per side, twin tower MM7's aren't the sexy name, but humble most other choices and have unique coherence aspects at the top of the food chain as well as the 97db, 7 ohm efficiency to allow those ML3's to really sing.

**a.wayne** · February 25, 2018, 03:29 PM

I see you got Lamms now Uncle Mike , I'm a big SET fan myself , they do their best work when allowed to run Fullrange and you are doing so for the most part in your setup , must be fantastic, if it's a good match to the MM7's ..

Hard to beat an SET for naturalness and aural space ....

Well done ..!!

Regards

**Mike Lavigne** · February 25, 2018, 04:07 PM

Originally Posted by a.wayne

I see you got Lamms now Uncle Mike , I'm a big SET fan myself , they do their best work when allowed to run Fullrange and you are doing so for the most part in your setup , must be fantastic, if it's a good match to the MM7's ..

Hard to beat an SET for naturalness and aural space ....

Well done ..!!

Regards

thank you. I don't want to derail this thread with ML3 talk, but I am living my 'ultimate' system right now, so felt my system was relevant to the thread.

always wanted tube amps, and figured why not start at the tip top since my speakers can work with modest power. most speaker systems involved with true full range systems cannot really get the most out of 32 watts so the ML3's are not a choice. however; the ML3's are perfect match with the MM7's. and the bass is to-die-for since the active bass towers cover below 40hz, and get their signal from the main amps so mimic the character of the ML3's. absolutely coherent and alive sounding.

**Jerry Seh** · February 25, 2018, 05:55 PM

Well, 3 things had to happen for me, if I'm going to get this dream team system.

1. Money no issue - which is the assumption here.
2. Space no issue
3. Wife no issue.

So, what would the combo be?

An all Kondo (Audio Note Japan) for gears
Kondo Ginga Turntable
Kondo IO-M Cartrdige
Kondo LS-41 Arm cable
Kondo GE-10 Phono Stage
Kondo G1000 Preamp
Kondo Kagura Mono Power
Aurender W20
Magnum Dynalab MD108T se (am still a sucker for good analogue FM)
Kondo LS-41 Interconnects
Kondo SPs-2.7 Speaker cables
Avantgarde Trio Classico XD (since the Luxury Edition 26 assumably no longer available)

Although I have not heard this combo together, don't think I ever will), but the Kondo system with The Tannoy Westminster GR is something really unforgettable an experience. And of course, the Trio Classico XD is so real in its presentation (with Audio Note Level 5 components).

Enough dreaming, back to reality before I do something stupid planning for the next impossible, but attainable combo. Wilson Alexia ... next dream.

Cheers!

**bart** · February 25, 2018, 06:19 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Seh

Well, 3 things had to happen for me, if I'm going to get this dream team system.

1. Money no issue - which is the assumption here.
2. Space no issue
3. Wife no issue.

So, what would the combo be?

An all Kondo (Audio Note Japan) for gears
Kondo Ginga Turntable
Kondo IO-M Cartrdige
Kondo LS-41 Arm cable
Kondo GE-10 Phono Stage
Kondo G1000 Preamp
Kondo Kagura Mono Power
Aurender W20
Magnum Dynalab MD108T se (am still a sucker for good analogue FM)
Kondo LS-41 Interconnects
Kondo SPs-2.7 Speaker cables
Avantgarde Trio Classico XD (since the Luxury Edition 26 assumably no longer available)

Although I have not heard this combo together, don't think I ever will), but the Kondo system with The Tannoy Westminster GR is something really unforgettable an experience. And of course, the Trio Classico XD is so real in its presentation (with Audio Note Level 5 components).

Enough dreaming, back to reality before I do something stupid planning for the next impossible, but attainable combo. Wilson Alexia ... next dream.

Cheers!

Jerry, no DAC?

**GSOphile** · February 25, 2018, 06:29 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

I kinda like my little old system.......and my choice(s) of amplifiers, dart 458's + Lamm ML3 Signatures (just arrived) is right up there.....and then there is the whole 800 pound gorilla of the building and room to consider. you start there and I did that part. MSB Select II + a couple of Studer A-820's and the new AS-2000 tt. the 1500 pound per side, twin tower MM7's aren't the sexy name, but humble most other choices and have unique coherence aspects at the top of the food chain as well as the 97db, 7 ohm efficiency to allow those ML3's to really sing.

Jeez Mike, you're a little light on amplification to achieve decent system balance, don't ya think?? Gonna give this hobby bad name!! Sigh

**Mike Lavigne** · February 25, 2018, 06:53 PM

Originally Posted by GSOphile

Jeez Mike, you're a little light on amplification to achieve decent system balance, don't ya think?? Gonna give this hobby bad name!! Sigh

you might be right. but I ran out of floor space.

**Jerry Seh** · February 25, 2018, 09:16 PM

Originally Posted by bart

Jerry, no DAC?

Hi Bart,

Think I've dropped the idea on having CD's/SACD's ... so did not remember to add this.

Well, a stack of dCS Vivaldi, comprising of the Transport, DAC, Upsampler & Master Clock should do. Its always so nice to play around with DREAM SYSTEM.

For Video playback, the full mod ModWright Oppo UDP-205 will do just fine. In fact, I had it a couple of weeks ago, before Chinese New Year and I must say, Dan's work surpasses my expectation. Good enough to be an all-in-one in a much humbler setup.

In a more REALISTIC twist of things, after adding the ModWright UDP-205, would be adding the Magnum MD108T when my Devialet O'dA comes back from France after the Core Infinity upgrade, I am thinking of switching the speakers to Wilson Alexia, I or II's, depending if I can really hear that difference as spelt out by the reviewers. The Radio D-3.1 should not have a problem finding a new home as its all about pricing to sell. Now, if the O'dA will go for my targetted pricing, Dan D'Agositino Momentum 4 piece may be in the running. If not, the Progression will do just as well, albeit slightly painful to the pocket.

Cables? Well, the Audience SX 24 speaker cables will haver to be kept back into the box as the Wilsons done take Bananas I was told. So in come a pair of Transparent Reference. And not the ridiculously expensive Magnum Opus/Opus. Just the mid range Reference will do. This last part is in the planning stage and by no means THE action. The Oppo and Tuner is a sure do.

Oh well, thats all for an exciting 2018. I guess, its Never Say Never Again .... what an "U Turn" hobby this is. Not to see if I can find myself out of the small den.

Cheers

**bart** · February 26, 2018, 10:28 AM

Originally Posted by Jerry Seh

Hi Bart,

Think I've dropped the idea on having CD's/SACD's ... so did not remember to add this.

Well, a stack of dCS Vivaldi, comprising of the Transport, DAC, Upsampler & Master Clock should do. Its always so nice to play around with DREAM SYSTEM.

For Video playback, the full mod ModWright Oppo UDP-205 will do just fine. In fact, I had it a couple of weeks ago, before Chinese New Year and I must say, Dan's work surpasses my expectation. Good enough to be an all-in-one in a much humbler setup.

In a more REALISTIC twist of things, after adding the ModWright UDP-205, would be adding the Magnum MD108T when my Devialet O'dA comes back from France after the Core Infinity upgrade, I am thinking of switching the speakers to Wilson Alexia, I or II's, depending if I can really hear that difference as spelt out by the reviewers. The Radio D-3.1 should not have a problem finding a new home as its all about pricing to sell. Now, if the O'dA will go for my targetted pricing, Dan D'Agositino Momentum 4 piece may be in the running. If not, the Progression will do just as well, albeit slightly painful to the pocket.

Cables? Well, the Audience SX 24 speaker cables will haver to be kept back into the box as the Wilsons done take Bananas I was told. So in come a pair of Transparent Reference. And not the ridiculously expensive Magnum Opus/Opus. Just the mid range Reference will do. This last part is in the planning stage and by no means THE action. The Oppo and Tuner is a sure do.

Oh well, thats all for an exciting 2018. I guess, its Never Say Never Again .... what an "U Turn" hobby this is. Not to see if I can find myself out of the small den.

Cheers

Great plans Jerry!

**a.wayne** · February 28, 2018, 03:43 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

you might be right. but I ran out of floor space.

A blessing for dealing with those not able to understand the power necessary for real world dynamic's..

**a.wayne** · February 28, 2018, 03:45 PM

Originally Posted by Jerry Seh

Hi Bart,

Think I've dropped the idea on having CD's/SACD's ... so did not remember to add this.

Well, a stack of dCS Vivaldi, comprising of the Transport, DAC, Upsampler & Master Clock should do. Its always so nice to play around with DREAM SYSTEM.

For Video playback, the full mod ModWright Oppo UDP-205 will do just fine. In fact, I had it a couple of weeks ago, before Chinese New Year and I must say, Dan's work surpasses my expectation. Good enough to be an all-in-one in a much humbler setup.

In a more REALISTIC twist of things, after adding the ModWright UDP-205, would be adding the Magnum MD108T when my Devialet O'dA comes back from France after the Core Infinity upgrade, I am thinking of switching the speakers to Wilson Alexia, I or II's, depending if I can really hear that difference as spelt out by the reviewers. The Radio D-3.1 should not have a problem finding a new home as its all about pricing to sell. Now, if the O'dA will go for my targetted pricing, Dan D'Agositino Momentum 4 piece may be in the running. If not, the Progression will do just as well, albeit slightly painful to the pocket.

Cables? Well, the Audience SX 24 speaker cables will haver to be kept back into the box as the Wilsons done take Bananas I was told. So in come a pair of Transparent Reference. And not the ridiculously expensive Magnum Opus/Opus. Just the mid range Reference will do. This last part is in the planning stage and by no means THE action. The Oppo and Tuner is a sure do.

Oh well, thats all for an exciting 2018. I guess, its Never Say Never Again .... what an "U Turn" hobby this is. Not to see if I can find myself out of the small den.

Cheers

A Dream system Jerry , Big Dream system , come again ..

**SCAudiophile** · March 3, 2018, 09:53 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

I kinda like my little old system.......and my choice(s) of amplifiers, dart 458's + Lamm ML3 Signatures (just arrived) is right up there.....and then there is the whole 800 pound gorilla of the building and room to consider. you start there and I did that part. MSB Select II + a couple of Studer A-820's and the new AS-2000 tt. the 1500 pound per side, twin tower MM7's aren't the sexy name, but humble most other choices and have unique coherence aspects at the top of the food chain as well as the 97db, 7 ohm efficiency to allow those ML3's to really sing.

Mike,..another beautiful photo of an amazing system; love how those amps and overall setup of them speak volumes,...BEAUTIFUL!!!

**Mike Lavigne** · March 3, 2018, 12:27 PM

Originally Posted by SCAudiophile

Mike,..another beautiful photo of an amazing system; love how those amps and overall setup of them speak volumes,...BEAUTIFUL!!!

thanks. after a couple of weeks, really enjoying the Lamm ML3's. later today i'll be switching back to the dart 458's for the first time and see how I feel about that and what music it opens up to me.

**Kuoppis** · March 3, 2018, 06:22 PM

Will be interesting to hear your views. That is quite a exclusive comparison.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**Mike Lavigne** · March 3, 2018, 11:02 PM

first impressions switching back to the dart 458's, which had been un-plugged now for 2 weeks.

--tonally flat and lifeless for the first 5-10 minutes.
--at about 15 minutes a bit of tonal life creeps in and gently ramps up for about an hour at a fairly strong rate, then slower since then.
--now at 2 hours it's maybe 60% there.

immediately at 'turn-on' the top end air is considerably improved, as is the sense of authority and scale. more room filling. the micro-dynamics are much more present, with greater overall energy projection. bass heft is a bit less forceful, but more broadly gripping. vocals were somewhat washed out in the first 11-15 minutes, but soon after got definition and substance.....but not in ML3 territory for sure. we will see later how close they come.....I don't expect them to get all the way to the ML3's in that way.

do I miss the ML3's? somewhat yes at this point. do I appreciate the dart's additions? sure; but the synergy is not yet all the way back. and I've not yet played any 'full-tilt boggie' big music......which is a big part of my system building and important to me. i'll comment when I get to that part.

it's how I deal with this in-between part that I have to adapt to, and how that will play out in visitor sessions where i'm switching mid session. I could see planning a meal at switchover point and give it an hour. or maybe starting with a fully synergized darTZeel and then switching to the ML3's will be less of a compromise. i'll have to figure it out.

**Kuoppis** · March 4, 2018, 04:46 AM

Great summary Mike, many thanks. Do I read your description correctly, that you get greater tonal density from the Lamm’s? Or is that just during warm-up?

In case you plan to demo both systems within a short time window, I would just put in another 2-plug extension cord to feed the idle amps with power while you are demoing the others. As the gradual sound improvement is a result of amp warm-up, you should be able to avoid that at least partly, if the amps are already warm. For warm-up you don’t need good power, just some power. Switching the already warm amps to your main power system should shorten the process.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

**Mike Lavigne** · March 4, 2018, 11:20 AM

this morning (with the dart in standby all night) things seem back to normal with the dart, as all the cables and especially the grounding cables have settled in and sound right. i'm hearing typically excellent meat on the bones and degrees of tonal density. we will see as I revisit some different recordings how we are doing.

right now i'm not compelled to put the ML3's back in, it's more i'm enjoying a more open, relaxed, effortless and spacious musical world. but hey; this has been my environment for years so no surprise. the same piano digital track I had on last night that was not quite doing it, is now just ducky.

i'm happy to switch these posts (if I should) about the ML3-458 experience to it's own thread as I don't wan't to screw up this 'ultimate system' thread.

**Mike** · March 4, 2018, 11:34 AM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

this morning (with the dart in standby all night) things seem back to normal with the dart, as all the cables and especially the grounding cables have settled in and sound right. i'm hearing typically excellent meat on the bones and degrees of tonal density. we will see as I revisit some different recordings how we are doing.

right now i'm not compelled to put the ML3's back in, it's more i'm enjoying a more open, relaxed, effortless and spacious musical world. but hey; this has been my environment for years so no surprise. the same piano digital track I had on last night that was not quite doing it, is now just ducky.

i'm happy to switch these posts (if I should) about the ML3-458 experience to it's own thread as I don't wan't to screw up this 'ultimate system' thread.

Good to hear Mike. It sounds like the big 458's are just too delicious sounding and "right" sounding to ignore. Have you ever tried big tube amps? VAC 450iQ monos for example. ARC 750SE monos? There is probably a good synergy between the bass driver amplification and the big Dart's.

**Mike Lavigne** · March 4, 2018, 11:50 AM

Originally Posted by Mike

Good to hear Mike. It sounds like the big 458's are just too delicious sounding and "right" sounding to ignore. Have you ever tried big tube amps? VAC 450iQ monos for example. ARC 750SE monos? There is probably a good synergy between the bass driver amplification and the big Dart's.

I've had big CJ's (LP275M) and the Berning 211/845's in my system in the last few years (since I had my dart 458's) to name a couple. and I've heard lots of big tubes at shows multiple times. I typically like them to various degrees.

but I always find I easily prefer the overall performance of the big darTZeel's to any high power tube amplifier. the lower noise and greater speed and control of the darts, along with it's refinement, tips the balance. big tubes sound like big tubes to me. OTOH the ML3's bring a degree of musicality to my system a few degrees of magnitude greater than those big tube amps so offer a few steps farther alternate viewpoint.

if I lived with a few of the above named big tube amps you never know what that might do, but I've never really been even much tempted by them. OTOH when I've heard the ML3's in other systems it has always grabbed me. and it grabs me now in my system too. this is an emotion based hobby, and right now the ML3's and big darts both do it for me. and I've yet to hear anything very close to either at their strengths.

**a.wayne** · March 4, 2018, 01:45 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

I've had big CJ's (LP275M) and the Berning 211/845's in my system in the last few years (since I had my dart 458's) to name a couple. and I've heard lots of big tubes at shows multiple times. I typically like them to various degrees.

but I always find I easily prefer the overall performance of the big darTZeel's to any high power tube amplifier. the lower noise and greater speed and control of the darts, along with it's refinement, tips the balance. big tubes sound like big tubes to me. OTOH the ML3's bring a degree of musicality to my system a few degrees of magnitude greater than those big tube amps so offer a few steps farther alternate viewpoint.

if I lived with a few of the above named big tube amps you never know what that might do, but I've never really been even much tempted by them. OTOH when I've heard the ML3's in other systems it has always grabbed me. and it grabs me now in my system too. this is an emotion based hobby, and right now the ML3's and big darts both do it for me. and I've yet to hear anything very close to either at their strengths.

I do agree,

Big tooby's dont do anything for me over SS , only SET's brings something else to the table that's hard to beat...

**GiorgioNuvolari** · March 4, 2018, 03:15 PM

Hello,
I hope you will not mind a newbie view :-)
I am taken by musicality, precision, technology but also design and execution.
As I transition between residences, I am fortunate to be in a position to put together my ultimate system.
For a small room:
Devialet Expert Pro -> Magico Q1
For the main room:
MSB Select or totaldac d1-twelve -> Naim Statement -> Magico M6

best,
gn

**Mike Lavigne** · March 4, 2018, 03:20 PM

Originally Posted by GiorgioNuvolari

Hello,
I hope you will not mind a newbie view :-)
I am taken by musicality, precision, technology but also design and execution.
As I transition between residences, I am fortunate to be in a position to put together my ultimate system.
For a small room:
Devialet Expert Pro -> Magico Q1
For the main room:
MSB Select or totaldac d1-twelve -> Naim Statement -> Magico M6

best,
gn

hello Giorgio, welcome to Audioshark.

I like your choices, particularly the MSB Select II. :-)

best,

Mike

**GiorgioNuvolari** · March 4, 2018, 03:39 PM

Thank you, Mike, I have read whatever I could find across a number of forums and very much appreciate your contributions and sharing of the Select II experience!
I will most likely have to make a choice between totaldac and MSB based on auditioning d1-seven and Reference. I will be reaching out for help :-)
best,
gn

**Mike Lavigne** · March 4, 2018, 06:06 PM

Originally Posted by GiorgioNuvolari

Thank you, Mike, I have read whatever I could find across a number of forums and very much appreciate your contributions and sharing of the Select II experience!
I will most likely have to make a choice between totaldac and MSB based on auditioning d1-seven and Reference. I will be reaching out for help :-)
best,
gn

happy to assist if I can. I do think highly of the MSB Reference dac. so best wishes with your investigations.....I don't think you can go wrong with those two choices.

**GiorgioNuvolari** · March 5, 2018, 04:14 AM

The challenge for me will be to make a decision whether to go with the top performers from each manufacturer based on trying to understand the 'house', or 'signature' sonic character while listening to d1-seven and Reference, notwithstanding the excellence of those two in their own right. It will be fun!
Best, gn

**Mike** · March 10, 2018, 05:06 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

I've had big CJ's (LP275M) and the Berning 211/845's in my system in the last few years (since I had my dart 458's) to name a couple. and I've heard lots of big tubes at shows multiple times. I typically like them to various degrees.

but I always find I easily prefer the overall performance of the big darTZeel's to any high power tube amplifier. the lower noise and greater speed and control of the darts, along with it's refinement, tips the balance. big tubes sound like big tubes to me. OTOH the ML3's bring a degree of musicality to my system a few degrees of magnitude greater than those big tube amps so offer a few steps farther alternate viewpoint.

if I lived with a few of the above named big tube amps you never know what that might do, but I've never really been even much tempted by them. OTOH when I've heard the ML3's in other systems it has always grabbed me. and it grabs me now in my system too. this is an emotion based hobby, and right now the ML3's and big darts both do it for me. and I've yet to hear anything very close to either at their strengths.

Good to see you got tempted and took my VAC450 suggestion. The ones with iQ are very nice. No fussing with bias. Hopefully they work out for you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Mike Lavigne** · March 10, 2018, 05:53 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Good to see you got tempted and took my VAC450 suggestion. The ones with iQ are very nice. No fussing with bias. Hopefully they work out for you.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

we will see; i'm listening to the VAC Statement 450's (not the iQ versions) now. but I did not pursue them (or turn them down either).

my friend made me an offer I could not refuse, partly with all the suggestions to try 'big tubes'. he said come and get them and try them for a while......and see what you think.

they sound 'big' and 'liquid' and 'authoritative' as you would expect and seem to perfectly integrate with the active bass towers of my MM7's.

if the darTZeel 458's and Lamm ML3 Signatures together was crazy, not sure the word we use for then adding the VAC Statement 450 mono blocks. 'crowded' maybe.

**Mike** · March 10, 2018, 06:08 PM

Originally Posted by Mike Lavigne

we will see; i'm listening to the VAC Statement 450's (not the iQ versions) now. but I did not pursue them (or turn them down either).

my friend made me an offer I could not refuse, partly with all the suggestions to try 'big tubes'. he said come and get them and try them for a while......and see what you think.

they sound 'big' and 'liquid' and 'authoritative' as you would expect and seem to perfectly integrate with the active bass towers of my MM7's.

if the darTZeel 458's and Lamm ML3 Signatures together was crazy, not sure the word we use for then adding the VAC Statement 450 mono blocks. 'crowded' maybe.

Beautiful. The thing about the iQ versions is you can try different KT based tubes like the 150’s or 120’s and having had the non-iQ 200’s and now the iQ200’s, there is a substantial difference having perfect bias all the time. Substantial.

At the event last week we used the Select II into the VAC 200iQ monos and it was outstanding sound.

I’m fortune enough to have my store right near VAC (5 minutes) and spend time at the factory often. They are dedicated artisans that’s for sure.

The Statement Phonostage is my dream piece.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

**Mike Lavigne** · March 10, 2018, 06:25 PM

Originally Posted by Mike

Beautiful. The thing about the iQ versions is you can try different KT based tubes like the 150’s or 120’s and having had the non-iQ 200’s and now the iQ200’s, there is a substantial difference having perfect bias all the time. Substantial.

At the event last week we used the Select II into the VAC 200iQ monos and it was outstanding sound.

I’m fortune enough to have my store right near VAC (5 minutes) and spend time at the factory often. They are dedicated artisans that’s for sure.

The Statement Phonostage is my dream piece.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I've heard the 450iQ mono's in shows, but never heard the regular 450's and iQ versions back to back so I will have to take your word for the differences. and no doubt those type of upgrades can be significant.

in any case, I think the Statement 450's are a good representative of what big tubes are capable of. so it's a good in-system data point to me going forward as to how this type of amplifier works in my system and compares to both the big darts and ML3's.

**sharkmouth** · March 11, 2018, 04:07 AM

24hrs is a long time in the best sound of a system for everything to settle after it has been moved/changed out regardless of it being component or cable/power related!

I find this thread very interesting for the fact that I have owned systems that were way cheap, also some that weren't cheap by any margin. I have also heard systems that were in the realm of close to a $m dollars that, at the time made me think wow, to only realise that as I was leaving, it still had flaws. Probably one of the better systems I have ever heard, made me realise instantly, that if this is as good as it can get with this much money, I'm traveling pretty well. "Once you pick your poison,the Gargoyles don't have your back" , careful of the poison!

**Jozua** · March 14, 2018, 04:09 PM

The kit discussed here looks fantastic !

The problem for me with very high resolution systems is finding good quality source material - at least this has been my experience, the higher I have moved up.. the more critical it has become to find quality recordings.

Thread: THE ultimate system

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