Results 1 to 33 of 33
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February 12, 2022, 12:41 AM #1
New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Just installed a new ethernet cable - Wireworld Starlight 8 Twinax Ethernet Cable for Sale - between the Lumin L1 and Lumin X1.
Generally I'm at least a little skeptical about improvement from this kind of thing, particularly when it comes to the network side of things (I mean "cat 8 is cat 8" right?), but also generally willing to keep an open mind and keep trying.
Maybe it's just confirmation bias or something else at play, but I was hearing not-subtle improvement in a few areas. Improved attack and an overall sense of crispness/resolution of small detail, better separation and layering, voice and instrument timbres were more realistic (guitar, particularly acoustic guitar, double bass, horns, piano, percussion), and a slightly increased soundstage in all directions.
I'm pretty attuned to instrument timbre especially guitar and sax since I've played both for many years, and it went from "eh, it sounds close but not all the way there" to "yeah, that sounds like a real, live acoustic guitar is supposed to sound".
Again just kinda surprised at how much it seemed to make a difference. And this is a pretty inexpensive ethernet cable.Main System
Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B
Headphones
Home: HiFiMan Susvara > Schiit Lyr+
Portable: Focal Radiance > AQ Dragonfly Cobalt / Chord Hugo 2
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February 12, 2022, 12:52 AM #2
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Ethernet cables make a BIG difference. It's not as simple as matter of "Cat 8 is Cat 8"....I could write a white paper as to why, suffice it to say there a number of reasons why they matter.
You should rent in a Shunyata Ethernet cable some time, even the entry level Venom blows the WW Starlight Cat8 into the weeds.
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February 12, 2022, 01:33 AM #3
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Jitter, jitter, jitter.
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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February 12, 2022, 12:42 PM #4
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February 12, 2022, 04:24 PM #5
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- Bay Area
- Posts
- 760
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
I am revamping my network side of things and have the NA Eno filter/cable and USB cable coming in few days hopefully. The filter will be connected to JCAT XE net card (powered by excellent LPS) and the cable connected to a Buffalo switch (also powered by LPS). There has been a quiet a bit of praise for the Eno from the folks I trust. Will see how it goes but needless to say that anything done to optimize the network helps a lot.
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February 13, 2022, 01:18 PM #6
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February 13, 2022, 02:01 PM #7
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
It's a problem when using streamers, network bridges or DACs because it impacts...timing.
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February 13, 2022, 02:18 PM #8
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Timing is not a problem with ethernet connection - the data is transferred just like any other computer files using TCP/UDP protocols and buffered on streamer/renderer.
It's completely different story compared with the connection between transport and DAC where jitter/timing does have an effect.Devialet Expert 440 Pro | Dynaudio Confidence 50 | 2x SVS SB16-Ultra
Anthem MRX 720 | Dynaudio Excite X28 | Dynaudio Emit M20
LG OLED 77 CX | LG OLED 65 C7
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February 13, 2022, 03:47 PM #9
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
TCP/IP is just transmission protocol, nothing more.
The actual signal is an analog square wave voltage.
It's noise on the ground plane in the form of high-source impedance leakage current on Ethernet and USB cables that causes the problem. This voltage is impacted by the high-source impedance leakage current, and results in a specific form of jitter known as threshold jitter, which concomitantly impacts timing.
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February 13, 2022, 03:57 PM #10
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Electrical signal prone to jitter is between streamer/renderer and DAC - not before streamer. The data that came through ethernet connection is 100% correct in memory buffer - before clock is even used to create that electrical signal - for DAC.
If streamer/renderer is not implemented properly and with proper galvanic isolation of ethernet port, electrical noise/EMI could affect the generated electrical signal on streamer output - toward DAC.Devialet Expert 440 Pro | Dynaudio Confidence 50 | 2x SVS SB16-Ultra
Anthem MRX 720 | Dynaudio Excite X28 | Dynaudio Emit M20
LG OLED 77 CX | LG OLED 65 C7
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February 13, 2022, 04:54 PM #11
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- Bay Area
- Posts
- 760
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February 13, 2022, 05:15 PM #12
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Bud
Lumin X1 file player, Westminster Labs interconnect cable
Sony XA-5400ES SACD
Pass XP-22 pre, X600.5 amps
Magico S5 MKII Mcast Rose speakers, SPOD spikes
Shunyata Triton v3/Typhon QR for source, Denali 2000 (2) for amps
Shunyata Sigma XLR analog ICs, Sigma speaker cables
Shunyata Sigma HC (2), Sigma Analog, Sigma Digital, Z Anaconda (3) power cables
Mapleshade Samson four shelf maple rack, Micropoint brass footers
Three 20 amp circuits.
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February 13, 2022, 05:34 PM #13
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Is an ethernet cable digital or analogue? - Quora
Thought her explanation was helpful, as well some of the ones further down.
In a separate thread I finally - after Puma patiently schooled me lol - realized I'd forgotten this part of networking theory but it is in fact what I was taught. In my probably over-simplified version the data (songs represented by a bunch of 0s and 1s collected to a file stored at rest on a hard drive somewhere) is digital in the sense that the data is encoded as 0s and 1s. That file is transmitted in the form of ethernet packets ("ethernet" being one of many possible definitions of the arrangement/structure of that "data" required to ensure the data gets from point A to point B as intended). On the receiving device side it's unpacked/decoded from bits to something the intended device interprets - via software - for it's purpose (audio video websites whatever).
But the way is gets from device A to device B is "analog" in the sense the 0s and 1s are represent by electrical voltage changes over that piece of wire. When Puma and others talk about why ethernet data transmission is subject to types of interference causing jitter and timing problems it's the analog/electrical nature of that transmission they're referring to.
Hopefully I simplified that in a mostly correct way. Ironically when I was studying this kind of networking theory I was sort of like "who cares move on this makes no difference to me some EE somewhere handled it". And now, I care!Main System
Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B
Headphones
Home: HiFiMan Susvara > Schiit Lyr+
Portable: Focal Radiance > AQ Dragonfly Cobalt / Chord Hugo 2
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February 13, 2022, 05:36 PM #14
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February 13, 2022, 06:33 PM #15
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Yep, this is what as known, Dave, as a statistically-significant interaction of control factors influencing a functional response.
A classic one in baking, as well as chemistry (of which baking is one form of..), is the Time*Temp interaction.
Yet, science students at Uni are not taught this, students are instead taught OFAT....One Factor At a Time.
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February 17, 2022, 10:46 AM #16
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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February 17, 2022, 02:32 PM #17
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Before you would characterize any statistically valid functional interactions with DOE, it goes without saying you would do an statistically valid measurement systems analyis, aka, MSA...to qualify the measurement system before doing DOEs to characterize interaction studies.
I didn't forget about it at all, I just didn't want to get into presenting an entire course on Design for Six Sigma here. (FWIW, I used to do this professionally as a DFSS Master Black Belt).
Carry on.
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February 17, 2022, 09:40 PM #18
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
2chl : Vincent Sp331MkII, W4S STP-SE Stage 2, Kef 201/2, KEF 140, Vapor Breeze, Lumin, Bryston CD, BHA-1, Quicksilver Headamp, HD650, HD800s, HD820's, Dan Clark 1.1, Focal Stellia, OPPO 203, 105. ( Boxed up: Pass Xa-30.5, VPI Classic, Dynavector DV-20XL, Manley Chinook, Cadenza Bronze)
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February 17, 2022, 11:29 PM #19
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February 18, 2022, 06:50 AM #20
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February 18, 2022, 11:04 PM #21
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February 19, 2022, 02:11 AM #22
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
I did a competitive benchmarking at my own cost on a lot of Ethernet cables in Spring 2019: Audioquest Cinnamon, Belden Cat6A, Wireworld Starlight Cat8, generic CAT7, Supra Cat 8, and Audioquest Vodka. Then around the end of that time period, I received Shunyata Venom and Alpha Ethernet cables for beta-testing.
Even the entry-level Shunyata Venom Ethernet cable absolutely smoked all of them. I remember one evening I swapped out the AQ Vodka for the Shunyata Venom, and the Venom was so much better, I literally burst out laughing.
Then, I had an audio buddy over for an evening and ran the same comparison for him. Conclusion was exactly the same. Then...I put in a Shunyata Alpha Ether, and he burst out with the comment "Whoa! Who took the "kink" out of the hose?"
Trust me, I did all the "legwork" on this one....
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February 19, 2022, 05:05 AM #23
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
I have tried a few different brands in my system (also Shunyata), I stream with my dcs Rossini and Aurender N10 and prefer different cables for both of them.
My preference of ethernet cables changed after adding a Melco S100 switch (with Plixir power supply), therefore I think it is useless to give "hard" recommendations as there are so many variables. Best is to fix a budget and try a few different brands.Moon 700i V2, YG Acoustics Hailey, Aurender N10, dCS Rossini, Oppo BDP103D (audiopraise board), Ansuz Mainz 8 D2
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February 19, 2022, 12:41 PM #24
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
What virtually none of the other Ethernet cables mitigate, which is quite important, is common-mode noise.
With respect to conducting experiments examining many variables, this is easily handled by conducting a "screening DOE" (Design of Experiments). JMP's Definitive Screening Design DOE platform is perfect for this. The functional response should likely be threshold jitter and phase noise.
Using Definitive Screening Designs to Get More Information from Fewer Trials - JMP User Community
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February 19, 2022, 02:06 PM #25
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Moon 700i V2, YG Acoustics Hailey, Aurender N10, dCS Rossini, Oppo BDP103D (audiopraise board), Ansuz Mainz 8 D2
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February 19, 2022, 07:52 PM #26
- Join Date
- Nov 2014
- Posts
- 2,104
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Some folks will claim to hear differences/improvements.
While others will rely on test results to show that ethernet cables do not make an audible difference (for example, Archimago's Musings: MEASUREMENTS: Ethernet Cables and Audio...)
The nice thing about this hobby is that everyone can pick whatever they like.
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February 22, 2022, 12:24 AM #27
- Join Date
- Apr 2016
- Location
- Bay Area
- Posts
- 760
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
If I were given a choice between a audiophile grade network cable vs audiophile network switch, I will opt for the later.
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February 22, 2022, 01:21 PM #28
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Main System
Lumin X1 > Boulder 1161 > Scansonic MB3.5 B
Headphones
Home: HiFiMan Susvara > Schiit Lyr+
Portable: Focal Radiance > AQ Dragonfly Cobalt / Chord Hugo 2
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February 22, 2022, 01:45 PM #29
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Yeah, that's ideal. One less device, less potential issues from the clocks and transformers of that device, and one less power supply in the chain. And one less power cord. Being able to go straight into the back the P1 with optical from the EtherREGEN in the server room is really, really nice. Oh, and nice and quiet, too. BTW, I put all the music server network components in the "remote server room" onto the new Shunyata PS10 power supply late last week, and...Man! BIG improvement. Now, I just need to find a clean quiet linear power supply for the Pace router.
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February 22, 2022, 01:49 PM #30
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
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February 23, 2022, 03:27 AM #31
- Join Date
- May 2020
- Location
- Kirkland, WA
- Posts
- 90
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Except that's not what he found at all. All he showed was that he was unable to construct a test that could detect the differences people report that they are hearing. Anyone who understands science knows that broad conclusions cannot be drawn from tests that find no differences. His hypothesis was that if there were differences they would show up in the measurements he selected. The results didn't align so he would have to construct a different hypothesis as shown in the flow chart.
Digital: Antipodes K30 > Shunyata Omega USB > Gustard X26pro DAC
Amp & Speakers: Spectral DMA-150mk2 > Aerial 10T
Foundation: Stillpoints Ultra, Shunyata Denali power conditioner, Shunyata Delta power cords, Shunyata Alpha interconnect, Shunyata Sigma Ethernet, MIT Matrix HD60 speaker cables, ASC isothermal tube traps
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February 23, 2022, 09:00 AM #32
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
After the powercords in my system, the ethernet cable between switch and streamers makes the biggest difference. My system seems to be less sensitive regarding speakercable and interconnects.
dCS is recommending a standard unshielded ethernetcable, but I prefer a shielded or a floating shield cable in that position.
Differences are easy to hear, no "golden" ears required.
4G/5G, WiFi, Bluetooth, DECT Phones, power supplies, digital gear, power grid, all can have their influence IMHO, you just have to find the right cable for your system.Moon 700i V2, YG Acoustics Hailey, Aurender N10, dCS Rossini, Oppo BDP103D (audiopraise board), Ansuz Mainz 8 D2
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April 7, 2022, 06:54 PM #33
Re: New ethernet cable - surprised at improvement
Just the same I found going from a freebie cat4 to Supra Cat8.
Better acoustic instruments details and speed, timbre from streaming music.
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AudioShark forum is a leading forum site for High End Audio Discussion, Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater System Discussion, Best Home Stereo System Discussion, Home Theater Installation Discussion etc.
The AudioShark forum was created for sharing the passion of high-end Audio. We have Audiophiles from all over the world participating and sharing their knowledge. From novice to experts, you will find a friendly environment for discussing about High End Audio, Stereo System, Home Theater System, Home Stereo System, Home Theater Installation, Amplifiers, Speakers, Subwoofers, Integrated System, Acoustic treatments & Digital Room Corrections and many more.
At AudioShark, we also have incorporated an exciting Marketplace where members can peruse terrific buys on used gear, as well as meet dealers and discuss the purchase of new gear.
We are as crazy about this hobby as you are! So come on in and join us! Audioshark.org the Friendliest Audio Forum!
Industry Participation Disclosure : The owner and administrator of Audioshark is the owner of Suncoast Audio LLC in Sarasota Florida. Suncoast Audio has a full brick and mortar presence in Sarasota with several great show rooms with many world class brands. More information can be found at http://www.suncoastaudio.com
Audioshark is a community of like minded individuals. Audioshark welcomes participation from all manufacturers and owners of all brands and products. It is our belief that online forums provide a community of like minded audiophiles and music lovers to encourage the growth of this wonderful hobby.
Sincerely,
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